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Old vs New (Violin, that is)
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Fiddle4Fun
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May 19, 2012 - 3:39 am
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Howdy all!

 

I'm sorry I haven't been around much.  My computer died right before finals so I've been doing most of my Internet browsing from my phone.  I've only been posting when I can get to the library or borrow a computer.

 

Thanks to all y'all who voted for my ad for the CVN-500 contest.  I got the violin in the mail two days ago and have been spending most of my time practicing with it.  Since we seem to frequently revist the question of whether older instruments or newer ones are better, I thought it would be fun to compare the CVN to my Joy and see if anyone can tell the difference (or even has a preference).

 

To start with, here's me playing the open strings on each instrument.  I've made it a blind test so you have to use your ears instead of making a call based on the appearance of the instrument.  I did tune both instruments using the same tuner and played with the same bow and in the same location.

 

 

I'll try to post a second comparison, where I actually play something, tomorrow, er, later today. After sleeping.  I also want to get a little more practice in since the variation between the instruments makes a surprising difference in how well I approximate the right notes. 

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DanielB
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May 19, 2012 - 4:26 am
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I would guess that the second one is the electric.  The tone of the first sounds more complex to me, and the second a bit more pure, which is what I'm basing my guess on.

Both are nice pleasant sounds, though.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Joe
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May 19, 2012 - 5:44 am
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I cant tell the difference....dazed

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Fiddlestix
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May 19, 2012 - 6:51 am
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I would have to say the first is the new fiddle, but..... dunno

And welcome back,,, been wondering about you.  smile

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NoirVelours
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May 19, 2012 - 6:59 am
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My guess is: old violin is second one because the sound is softer!

"It can sing like a bird, it can cry like a human being, it can be very angry, it can be all that humans are" Maxim Vengerov

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DanielB
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May 19, 2012 - 7:15 am
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Duh.  For some reason I was thinking a CVN-500 was an electric.  LOL

I'll still stick with my guess that the first sound was the older instrument though.  Probably wrong, but oh well.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Oliver
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May 19, 2012 - 8:36 am
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I like the second violin but do they both have the same strings ?

"right notes" ......  yeah, it is easier to play a good violin than a poor violin.

violin-student

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cdennyb
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OLD-vs-NEW-RECORDING-ANALYSIS.jpgImage Enlargerthe first one has a trace most closely mirroring the CVN 500 recordings I have analyzed but the second is very similiar. The 1st shows a brighter low frequency response and the second shows a higher P & V indicator. 

My guess-tamation is:

New=1st violin (The CVN 500) playing

Old=2nd one

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"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Kevin M.
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May 19, 2012 - 11:10 am
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I like the first one best.

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Soguns Black Violin
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May 19, 2012 - 11:26 am
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I'll say the 1st one is the old one, since the sound is completely open, propably Germany's violin isn't it facepalm.... that kind of sound on G string I heard so many time with Germany's violin ( just guest.. mb I'm wrong facepalm )... And 2nd one is CVN 500 new violin... since the sound is warm, but It's not open at all => new violin...

Violin - My Life - My Style - My love

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cdennyb
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After doing the analysis, I'm actually shocked that if there's a recording there of a CVN 500 it certainly doesn't look like the one I did before. dunno

If I were to get one, I'd hope it had a much smoother sound trace than either one shown by your recordings.laugh

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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NoirVelours
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May 19, 2012 - 4:11 pm
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Dennis, can it be that the analysis is influenced by the quality of the recording? Or even quality of bowing!

"It can sing like a bird, it can cry like a human being, it can be very angry, it can be all that humans are" Maxim Vengerov

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Mad_Wed
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May 19, 2012 - 6:40 pm
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I liked the second one. Have no idea is it old or new..dunno

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myguitarnow
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I couldn't tell the difference. The first had some background noise like a train or something going on in the background. The second time through it didn't. I sure couldn't tell the difference. Do they both have the same strings? I kind of liked the first one better but really too hard to tell be cause of the recording background noise on the first.

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Fiddle4Fun
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Howdy, all!  I’m glad to be back. 

 

Hah, about an even split between old and new for the first clip.  Statistically we’re pretty much at chance. laugh

 

In the video, the first clip belonged to the CVN-500 and the second to my old violin.  The old violin has Dominant strings, which are probably about ready to be replaced as they are about eight years old, and the CVN has the Cecilio stock strings (I think that’s what they are). 

 

Here’s a second comparison where I am actually attempting to play something other than the open strings.  I’ve labelled the instruments this time, though.  The CVN-500 is a bit of a challenge to play because it has a thinner, narrower neck than what I am used to. (The old violin has an unusually thick neck and also a wider fingerboard.)  Not only is my usual finger spacing off but I am also hitting multiple strings with my fingers since I am accustomed to having a bit more room to place them!  So, in short, this isn’t exactly pretty.

 

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Mad_Wed
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May 21, 2012 - 6:38 pm
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Ha!

Thanks, F4F! Seems i like the old violins =)

coffee

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NoirVelours
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May 21, 2012 - 6:45 pm
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Same here, but the 500 sounds pretty good, imagine it with good strings! But in the first clip I was attracted a lot more to the old violin sound. Is it me or it's harder to heraa  difference in the second clip? They suddenly sound almost the same, maybe less open for the old one but I would not bet on it.

"It can sing like a bird, it can cry like a human being, it can be very angry, it can be all that humans are" Maxim Vengerov

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Fiddle4Fun
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I don't think it's just you, NV.  When I finished putting that video together I was astonished at how hard it was to hear a difference.  I recorded the songs at the same time as the open strings too.  I might have to try a third comparison that includes the E string to see what it's like.

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cdennyb
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So, my sound analysis was dead on. It's interesting that the recording produced that wavy of a trace. The other CVN 500 was very smooth, almost too smooth for a production Chinese violin. Perhaps the other one was made by a more competent luthier or one that wasn't in a hurry to get to his coffee break. lol

The lower projection was a dead give-away for the older violin. Unless they are very expensive and very well played the traces are usually not near as high as a recently made newer model.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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cdennyb
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NoirVelours said
Dennis, can it be that the analysis is influenced by the quality of the recording? Or even quality of bowing!

I have done analysis using both cheap $10 chinese bows and $60 CF bows on the same instrument to test that option and found virtually no change in the trace path. In fact, just playing the open strings one time without any other notes produces a trace about 75%+ as good as a full song or series of notes played and recorded. I usually only record a max of 4 minutes but honestly I can get a real accurate trace from a 1/2 minute. It helps a lot to play as many notes from the lowest to the highest so the analysis software has lots of data points to analysis and compare. The best I've found in general is playing scales from the G all the way to high B on the E string, one note at a time and as fast as you're comfortable playing them.

I have done microphone recordings and straight digital loading of the tune into the software from a player and found neither to be any better. I suspect the quality of the microphone may have a slight impact on the quality of the analysis but I don't have a cheap mic to use in the test.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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