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Sharps, Flats, Naturals
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (4 votes) 
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Picklefish
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Nobodys debating what the notes are really called. Nor am I calling into question the names of non existent notes used only in particular keys simply for following the antiquated rules of composition. I made a simple comment that was accurate in the context I made it. You decided it was your job to pick it apart and over complicate it. Congrats.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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DanielB
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Not meaning to increase your stress, Pf.. but it isn't so much of an antiquated rule as a thing done to try and make it a bit easier on the player/reader. 

Sticking with the example of Gb, if we call that one note a B instead of a Cb then what happens when we play a melody that uses both the Bb (third) and the "Cb" (fourth)?  If we just called it a B, then we'd have to keep marking what would look like the same note either flat or "natural" in the score.  And a simple little melody that didn't have accidentals all over the place in most keys could be a real mess to read in the key of Gb.

But in the practical sense, if you plunk that "Cb" note on a piano and ask somebody what it is, they'd usually say it's a B.  And if somebody hands you a score in Gb, well.. Just take 'em out back and shoot them.  You know they probably never really liked you, anyway.  LOL

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Fiddlestix
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This is why I play until it sound's right.   violin-1267

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dogandponyshow

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dazed

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DanielB
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Yeah, it's things like this that make me a member of the "Glad that I play by ear" club.

Go team Play-By-Ear!  party

It is good to learn to read standard notation and etc as well.  It is very helpful when studying theory or learning new pieces, since recordings to learn from may not always be easy to find (or may not even exist).

I think the absolute best way is to be able to do both.  But of which skill I actually use most?  Playing by ear is at least 90% of music for me.

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Picklefish
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DanielB said
Not meaning to increase your stress, Pf.. but it isn't so much of an antiquated rule as a thing done to try and make it a bit easier on the player/reader. 

Sticking with the example of Gb, if we call that one note a B instead of a Cb then what happens when we play a melody that uses both the Bb (third) and the "Cb" (fourth)?  If we just called it a B, then we'd have to keep marking what would look like the same note either flat or "natural" in the score.  And a simple little melody that didn't have accidentals all over the place in most keys could be a real mess to read in the key of Gb.

But in the practical sense, if you plunk that "Cb" note on a piano and ask somebody what it is, they'd usually say it's a B.  And if somebody hands you a score in Gb, well.. Just take 'em out back and shoot them.  You know they probably never really liked you, anyway.  LOL

My reasoning makes no sense anyways. Ive always thought the Cflat isms in music as a novelty bound by rules and the non existent black keys as proof that the later is simply a made up thing to simplify composition in a particular key. As to the fingering you still would play it with a low three fingering depending on the surrounding notes, The Aflat and Bflat are already in play by then so the hand shifts to the scroll a half tone. As a point of contrast when someone asks a simple question sometimes a simple answer is best at the time. Then the more complicated rules can be discovered at a later time. I dont consider this false or lying or misleading, simply keepin it simple. I also dont think I need constant correction unless the patient is at risk of dying on the table, but Im over it now. I dont know it all, dont pretend to and much of the music stuff is a novelty to me anyways. Composer posted a thread about the different Hz of all the notes, I couldnt find it. Nor did an internet search provide it. The Bsharps, Cflats, Esharps and Fflats do exist in the world of physics but because they dont fit into the ratios of the even tempered scale and are dissonant in sound they arent used. That doesnt mean that they dont exist. When I see a Cflat notation I dont read it as Cflat, simply B. For me the abstract concept of it not being a black note on the keyboard and only existing on paper means theoretically it doesnt exist. I think its amusing, others are a bit more concrete than I.

I shouldnt have to write a thesis to explain "it doesnt exist, play the next note lower instead". Perhaps I should fully explain my thoughts when I  first type them but the thoughts are fleeting, im not paying complete attention and my fingers get tired. (insert 7 chuckles here)
 

 

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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DanielB
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The Bsharps, Cflats, Esharps and Fflats do exist in the world of physics but because they dont fit into the ratios of the even tempered scale and are dissonant in sound they arent used.

Sorry, but they are used.  I think you've mentioned before that you know the Sassmanshaus site, violinmasterclass.com?   Go to the masterclass section, then intonation, and there's some pretty good short explanations of how they're used in classical and other "period" playing.  Sometimes they can also be *less* dissonant (sweeter) than the equal tempered pitches.  They can just sound better when used in some places.

But I'd have to agree with you that so far as I know, they aren't the first thing most folks learn.  Especially not these days.  Most electronic tuners aren't made to hear them and so they probably aren't usually taught until the student develops enough of an ear to hear the slight differences.  Or maybe there is some way they are taught before then, being self taught, I don't know.

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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ratvn
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DanielB said
Yeah, it's things like this that make me a member of the "Glad that I play by ear" club.

Go team Play-By-Ear!  party

Yes, Daniel. I would go except that I do have hearing problem though, LOL.

DanielB said

Sometimes they can also be *less* dissonant (sweeter) than the equal tempered pitches.  They can just sound better when used in some places.

Yes, the creation of violin and its perfect fifth tuning don't have the equal tempered pitches in mind. It shoots for the beauty of perfect harmonics instead.
thumbs-up

 

 

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DanielB
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Yes, ratvn. 

One of the reasons I always wanted to try playing violin is the pitch freedom for expressive intonation.  Most of the instruments I play have some sort of fret or stop, and they just can't do it. 

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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ratvn
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DanielB said
Yes, ratvn. 

One of the reasons I always wanted to try playing violin is the pitch freedom for expressive intonation.  Most of the instruments I play have some sort of fret or stop, and they just can't do it. 

 

Yes, I totally agree, at 110%. Nothing could have been stated better. Same case, other instruments I've played have their limitation in expression. This is the instrument that has so much potential, power and freedom in term of expression, and yet, very hard to play, but that is where its beauty and power come from.

thumbs-upthumbs-upthumbs-up

cheers

 

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Fiddlerman
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I'm hoping I don't confuse things more for those of you already feeling as though this is complicated but scales are patterns of steps and not of specific pitches. Every single sharp and flat specific note exist but only according to its scale. A (B#) scale as complicated as it is, is only a C major scale and should for the most part never be used since C major is simple while B# becomes very complicated.
B#, C##, D##, E#, F##, G##, A##, B# same as C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C at least on the piano, since the piano is tempered.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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ratvn
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Fiddlerman said
I'm hoping I don't confuse things more

Now, you did it again, throwing another piece of wood into the fire, lol.

Thanks for the simplified explanation. Yes, looking at it in your mentioned context then it's clear and nothing there to debate since there are so many arguments about this and scales and so on lately.

Thanks again.

thumbs-uphats_off

Tyberius said 
but then somebody throws a shark in my hot tub.

It's all your fault, Ty. Why are you bringing this up, LOL.

Next time if somebody throws a shark then just give it to your Japanese friend along with some wasabi then everything will be fine and perfect, haha.

So now after some beers and wine, relatively speaking and hearing, sharps and flats are not so much sharp nor flat any more but the naturals may be more natural after all, lol.

cheers

 

 

 

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Fiddlerman
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March 19, 2013 - 9:34 am
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One way to try to avoid conflicts on a forum is to avoid saying that someone else is wrong. Instead saying something like, "this is the way I believe it is".
Being right or wrong is not as important as people think. Fact is that we ALL make mistakes. Of this, I am sure. Lord knows that I make tons. Just don't tell my wife that I said this. LOL

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Fiddlestix
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A friend of mine used to say, "I'd rather be happy than right".

                       banana

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Picklefish
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and Pierre said "I'm hoping I don't confuse things more for those of you already feeling as though this is complicated but scales are patterns of steps and not of specific pitches. Every single sharp and flat specific note exist but only according to its scale."

- Look I agree with this and have since the beginning. But (and I use my buts sparingly) my point is not that and really its a mute point since its a matter of opinion and how apparently I am the only one who looks at things this way.

 

@ Daniel said "Sorry, but they are used.  I think you've mentioned before that you know the Sassmanshaus site, violinmasterclass.com?   Go to the masterclass section, then intonation, and there's some pretty good short explanations of how they're used in classical and other "period" playing.  Sometimes they can also be *less* dissonant (sweeter) than the equal tempered pitches.  They can just sound better when used in some places."

Cmon now Daniel, Rosined Up already said we needed to stick with the modern and all the time used Even Tempered scale for the purposes of disputing this. Bringing up facts and reality doesnt count. Bach composed a piece for the well-tempered clavier I believe. So I agree with you about Period playing.

 

Consider the basic premise that a Flat lowers the note a half step and a sharp raises the note a half step. and by step I mean semi-tone. Now consider the C and a real Cflat vs the reduced by a semitone Cflat which equals a B. There isnt enough room between the B and C for a real Cflat according to the modern and often mostly used even tempered scale due to its ratio approach to intervals. So they say just play a B since that is the next closest interval. Thats why Cflat doesnt exist. Now you can notate a Cflat in those rarely used keys and thats fine, and you can say Cflat does exist cause its just the same as a B and thats fine. But, according to the rules....there is no such thing as a Cflat. It is in actuallity a B. Now  you can play a flat C note and it sounds off, which is why its not advised. lol. Like I said Its a matter of semantics mostly and compleltely pointless to argue about. But Im right and Im happy.

There have been other scales but to change the parameters of the discussion to disprove my pointless point isnt playing fair.  can we move on now?

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Kevin M.
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Fiddlerman said
One way to try to avoid conflicts on a forum is to avoid saying that someone else is wrong. Instead saying something like, "this is the way I believe it is".
Being right or wrong is not as important as people think. Fact is that we ALL make mistakes. Of this, I am sure. Lord knows that I make tons. Just don't tell my wife that I said this. LOL

 

I always tell my wife I never make a mistake, she just doesn't understand the big picture is why I did it that way.

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RosinedUp

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pfish said 

can we move on now?

If you believe you have an understanding of the discussion on this thread, I suggest you consider the following carefully:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.....ger_effect

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/2.....unning.pdf

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Picklefish
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I dont think you are a very nice person.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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dionysia
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RosinedUp said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.....ger_effect

 

I love it, but they spelled "Denise" wrong in the title and my last name isn't Kruger....

 

roflroflroflroflrofl

 

[How do you guys dig up this stuff???]

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Picklefish
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The basis of Western Music is diatonic tonality. This means that all music is based on diatonic scales, the most common of which are the major and minor. Most of the music you've ever heard is probably in one of these two modes. To build each of those scales, there is a certain pattern of half-steps (moving up 1/12th of an octave, or between two notes next to each other on the keyboard like a C and C#) and whole steps (basically, skipping over one half step, as in between C and D on the keyboard). Each scale HAS to, by definition, contain one note with each letter name, or 'tone' name; hence the terms 'diatonic', which means 'through the tones'.

The way to begin thinking of it is to not limit yourself to the keyboard and it's layout. Any note can be sharped or flatted, because these modifiers mean that you move the pitch up or down, regardless of where they begin. The black keys can be sharped further, notes like F and C can be flatted, and vice versa.

All the assigned names of the notes are theoretical; there are really twelve steps in the chromatic scale, and that's all that matters. If not for the keyboard, which was designed so that there are easily accessible major and minor scales (C major and A minor, all on white keys), there would be no confusion about things like C-flat or E-sharp. We could have simply assigned a letter name to each of the 12 tones, but it proved easier for the keyboard's layout to have a scale be on all white keys. When you want to build a scale that is distant from C or A minor, then, you have to keep the integrity of the writing of the scale by giving each note a name different than the ones around it. If I want to make a G-sharp major scale, for example; one note involved in this scale is G natural, which is a half step below G. Since the 'G' marker is already taken, the note below G on the scale must be assigned a modified 'F' name. Since we need the enharmonic equivalent of G, though, we have to sharp F twice (raise it a half-step two times), so it's actually written as Fx, x being a double-sharp sign. Then, below that, the next note down would be an F, whose name has also already been used. The third note needs an 'E' name, and since F natural is one half-step above E, we write it as E-sharp to stay consistent.

So; it is acceptable to think of a note being a B-natural when you're playing what's written as a C-flat, and it would even be OK to write such things as Double-sharps and -flats, or flats of C and F, or sharps of B and E, as their natural note enharmonic. It would still sound exactly the same when played, because the octave is divided up exactly into twelve tones. This didn't used to be the case, which is why so many early compositions avoided modulation into foreign keys; transposition was not possible when the intervals were based on imperfect fraction-ratios, rather than a unifying equal-temperment. Now, though, you can play any composition in any key and all the interval relationships will be the same, so C-flat is now truly the exact same, scientifically speaking, as B-natural. It's simply good practise, in the world of music theory and composition, to write it in the technically correct way.

so do I have a good grasp of it now? still self dilusional? Its still my opinion that there is no such thing as a Cflat and you wont agree and thats fine. It only exists on paper.

(I copied and pasted this, its plagerized in case I get flack for "claiming" it as an origional work to me.)

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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