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Electro acoustic
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Svento
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September 15, 2011 - 6:45 pm
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Does a fiddle lose much tone with built in electronics? The pu will be mounted at the end of the fingerboard and won't be in touch with any vibrating parts, but I'm thinking about a tele jack permanently installed in the ribs.

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myguitarnow
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September 15, 2011 - 8:49 pm
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Great question Svento...

It will make a difference in tone. The violin has a very small body and is designed to vibrate the tones through it's body. I would recommend a total acoustic violin and get a second e-violin for electronics. 

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gStretch
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September 15, 2011 - 8:51 pm
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check this out.

i would put the pick up on the bridge. thats where the vibrations are transferred to the body.

-g

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David Burns
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I was looking at another system called the band. It looks like a small bicycle innertube. It wraps around the body of the violin behind the bridge. Supposedly cuts down on feedback at high volumes that plague the bridge mics.

 

The Band

 

Of course for $119 I could almost get a complete electric violin.

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Svento
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September 15, 2011 - 9:54 pm
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But how much output volume would I actually lose? I mean, the ribs aren't vibrating much.

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gStretch
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September 15, 2011 - 10:04 pm
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this depends on how much electronics you put into it. like a pre-amp or things like that. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?N.....hlIByhDE 

these people put the input jack on the back, not the ribs.

-g

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myguitarnow
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September 15, 2011 - 10:15 pm
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You will lose a lot of volume and tone because of the cords inside of the violin. I've messed with many acoustic guitars putting pickups in and their's a lot of room in a acoustic guitar. Not much room in a fiddle. If you don't know how to work with effects then you should just get an acoustic violin and mic it.

Hey Dave, I have "the Band" and it works great but it does muffle the sound of the violin so you need effects with it too. 

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Svento
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September 15, 2011 - 10:25 pm
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gStretch said:

this depends on how much electronics you put into it. like a pre-amp or things like that. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?N.....hlIByhDE 

these people put the input jack on the back, not the ribs.

-g

It's not going to be anything inside, it would only be that output jack in the ribs.

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Svento
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September 15, 2011 - 10:34 pm
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myguitarnow said:

If you don't know how to work with effects then you should just get an acoustic violin and mic it.

I'm not sure what you mean with "work with effects". The only effect I need is the distortion of the amplifier. I want to electrify this instrument for a number of reasons. First of all it's that I'd like to have one alround instrument, secondly I like the sound of acoustic instruments used as electrics, and the third reason is that my electric one isn't very good. At the moment I don't have the money needed to have a solid body built for me. Besides I'd need someone to wind a pickup for it because the one I have on my present electric is for a regular four-string fiddle and I want five strings.

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Svento
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September 15, 2011 - 10:43 pm
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gStretch said:

i would put the pick up on the bridge. thats where the vibrations are transferred to the body.

-g

It can't be mounted on the bridge. The stringspace is different there, so the strings wouldn't be amplified equally. Besides it would pick very much bow noise, I've tried playing right above the pickup and it sounds wierd. And I don't really know how to attach it there... If I'd glue it to the bridge it would kill almost all of the vibrations. The plastic and the metal weighs a few grams.

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myguitarnow
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September 15, 2011 - 10:57 pm
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Just trying to help... The bridge sounds like the best place to put a pickup to me?

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Svento
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September 15, 2011 - 11:18 pm
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myguitarnow said:

Just trying to help... The bridge sounds like the best place to put a pickup to me?

Yes, I understand you're trying to help. I'm just saying there's no way the pickup could be mounted on the bridge.

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Fiddlerman
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September 15, 2011 - 11:25 pm
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I agree. The bridge gives off the best vibrations without dampening the body of the instrument too much.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Svento
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September 15, 2011 - 11:28 pm
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Fiddlerman said:

I agree. The bridge gives off the best vibrations without dampening the body of the instrument too much.

Please, please, please… This is not the thing I wanted to discuss now. There is no way the pu could be mounted on the bridge. I'd either have to glue it to the bridge or to the soundboard, with some lump of wood raising it up to the strings, and either way it would kill the sound completely. Besides it would sound weird that close to the bow. The fingerboard isn't vibrating at all. Placing it there the way it's made to be mounted, lets it pick the strings where they make the largest movements and it's in no contact with any vibrating parts.

 

I'm interested in learning how much the output jack in the ribs would affect the output volume. I've seen electro acoustics on pictures but I've never tried one. I've read that they're sufficient for acoustic playing, but I don't know how they differ in tone from a regular acoustic.

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Fiddlerman
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September 15, 2011 - 11:49 pm
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What are you going to be mounting. I must of misunderstood you. I thought you were installing a piezo microphone.

What would you be using the violin for when not amplified. I am sure the sound would be great enough to practice. Maybe not suitable for playing in a string quartet or in a symphony orchestra but when on stage you would amplify. I've played on acoustical electric violins and they have plenty of volume for most applications when not amplified.

I put a fischer on mine with the jack installed on the tailpiece though.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Svento
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Fiddlerman said:

What are you going to be mounting? I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were installing a piezo microphone.

What would you be using the violin for when not amplified. I am sure the sound would be great enough to practice. Maybe not suitable for playing in a string quartet or in a symphony orchestra but when on stage you would amplify. I've played on acoustical electric violins and they have plenty of volume for most applications when not amplified.

I put a fischer on mine with the jack installed on the tailpiece though.

No piezos, I hope to be using this fiddle as an electric one too. I play rock which means I need a real pickup. It's three coils molded into epoxy.

It sounds a bit strange if electro acoustics have all that acoustic body only for practice playing. For practicing a solid rubber foam body should be sufficient. I need quite a lot volume so that the fiddle may be heard over the drums and over my voice. I wonder if the tailpiece mounted jack wouldn't affect tone more than the ribs-mounted one.

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gStretch
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mounting a pickup like the one you're talkin about on a brigde, no it wouldn't be a good idea. but a piezo pickup would work very well, and then you could run it through effects pedals or an amp with effects to get the desired tone.

 

about the rubber body for practice. rubber isn't a very good acoustic material. it absorbs vibrations...not something you want to be happening in an instrument.  so if you want to practice without an amp you need some kinda of hollow body. 

 

and finally about the jack in the ribs. the hole in the violin will effect the sound just like the ff holes do, so make sure its air tight. 

and about volume, if you're plugging it into an amp, why are you worried about volume? crank up the knob and rock it out 😛

 

on a personal oppinion, i think you're making it alot harder by using the 'real' pickup.  the piezo works the same way as a pick up (turning vibrations into sound). and plus its cheaper and you can put in on the bridge where the vibrations are transferred. 

this guy put it under the foot of his cello's bridge. and he adds effects using an amp.

-g

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Svento
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September 16, 2011 - 12:46 am
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What I meant about rubber foam body was that for practicing purpose, it's usually better the more silent the instrument is. A solid wodd body would be sufficient but an acoustic – even a low-output acoustic – is a bit to much. When I had my electric built, I got more practice than ever before, but I still found it a bit too loud.

Piezo is simply out of question. I will never depend on piezos. Ask any electric guitarist if they're interested in amplifying their Les Paul or whatever with piezos instead of real pickups…

I do play a lot acoustic. That way we don't depend on electricity, we can play anywhere. Therefore I need a lot of acoustic volume so that the fiddle is heard over the drums and my voice. Otherwise I wouldn't need an acoustic at all. 

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David Burns
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myguitarnow said:

You will lose a lot of volume and tone because of the cords inside of the violin. I've messed with many acoustic guitars putting pickups in and their's a lot of room in a acoustic guitar. Not much room in a fiddle. If you don't know how to work with effects then you should just get an acoustic violin and mic it.

Hey Dave, I have "the Band" and it works great but it does muffle the sound of the violin so you need effects with it too. 

And for the price, I could just buy an electric violin, that will fit in it's own case. I am thinking you would have to remove the band everytime you put the violin back in the case. Not too handy!

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David Burns
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Svento said:

Fiddlerman said:

I agree. The bridge gives off the best vibrations without dampening the body of the instrument too much.

Please, please, please… This is not the thing I wanted to discuss now. There is no way the pu could be mounted on the bridge. I'd either have to glue it to the bridge or to the soundboard, with some lump of wood raising it up to the strings, and either way it would kill the sound completely. Besides it would sound weird that close to the bow. The fingerboard isn't vibrating at all. Placing it there the way it's made to be mounted, lets it pick the strings where they make the largest movements and it's in no contact with any vibrating parts.

 

I'm interested in learning how much the output jack in the ribs would affect the output volume. I've seen electro acoustics on pictures but I've never tried one. I've read that they're sufficient for acoustic playing, but I don't know how they differ in tone from a regular acoustic.

I have seen violins with the amplifier jack attached to the body with a device like the one that holds the chin rest. No extra holes in the body. Of course the wires run from the pick up to the output jack on top of the violin.

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