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Old violin rebuild
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (3 votes) 
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Fiddlestix
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feature=related

 

Interesting video I stumbled across while searching for a flute for my grandaughter.violin-1267

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TerryT
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Blimey where do you keep your flutes Ken?

Interesting, though I did wince every time he stuttered with the plain and was cutting wood with the blade pointing toward himself. My late, great father always used to say "never point a knife blade at yourself, always aim it toward a friend".
Advice that has kept all my finder tips joined to my knuckles!

I was born with nothing,
and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

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Kevin M.
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I liked the part at 7:02 where he measured from the nut to the bridge for the exact bridge placement.  Too many violins are just set at the marks for the f holes. It is 328mm.

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TerryT
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I didn't realisê it was such a critical dimension Kevin, now where's my tape measure?
Is it from the closest edge of the nut( to the bridge) or furthest, or midpoint?

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and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

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Kevin M.
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July 25, 2012 - 8:23 pm
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string.jpgIt is from the edge of the nut to the edge of the bridge.  This gives the string a lenght of 328mm to vibrate. At 328 the sinewave created by the string crosses the bridge at the point where the wave crosses the x axis. Harmonics is the word I was looking for.

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cdennyb
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all very good and accurate info Kevin... but only part of the calculation...

I have found in my studies and experiments (as I'm sure Daniel has as well.) that the 328 is a starting point. I have noticed that one violin may like the distance a slight bit more, meaning the bridge would be closer to the soundpost...and the other one of mine likes it less thn 328.. in fact it like 322mm much better. Now I suspect if I were to move the soundpost back some, then the 322mm could be increased to that magic 328 figure.

But, according to the sound analysis and trace comparisons, I'll be very content to leave it where it is.

The K500 I received was very, very close to the 328 and after I made a new bridge and positioned it according to the sound trace analysis and not a ruler, I found it ended up at 324mm...instead of 328. The trace and resulting sound was significantly improved. If I were to leave it as set up in the shop (328mm) the afterlength of the strings would've been shorter than the 54mm recommended as a tailpiece to bridge length. (The afterlength now is close to 52mm)

It's all such a complicated give and take scenario thing. a little off here, a little added there... it's all about the analysis in the end or the sound you can achieve from it.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Kevin M.
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July 26, 2012 - 8:17 am
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Denny have you ever done your sound analysis on a Stradivari?

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TerryT
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I'm guessing there are other factors involved in achieving a perfect sign wave/amplitude for example string tension and wire diameter

I was born with nothing,
and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

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Kevin M.
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You are completely correct Terry.  Most strings are designed around this length and you can find strings where the playing length is stated on the string.

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TerryT
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I had noticed that my violin sounded pants in 3rd position, even if I bowed close to the bridge to give the string maximum length possible to vibrate.
And thinking some more about it, whenever you stop a string a new sine wave is generated. Maybe perfect intonation is also matched to making a perfect sine wave between stopped position and the bridge for any given note.

violin-student
As you can probably tell, I'm writing this at work so my brain is in maximum logic mode, as compared to being at home when it changes to maximum drivel mode.

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and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

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Fiddlestix
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@cdennyb... I'm wondering have you performed sound analysis's with different diameter sound post's ?   

                  dunno  

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springer
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Hey Dennis! I was wondering if your ear is as good as your trace. i.e. can you tell by your ear when the trace "should" be the best.

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cdennyb
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been gone for a few days, back for the afernoon only so here goes...

 

1- I did three seperate traces for strads that were done by pros playing various pieces. One from a web site, the others from youtube. Their traces are very distictively similiar.

2- I did a couple of different soundposts for my German violin but tried to maintain the largest dia possible which was about 6mm, the largest that would fit thru the ff hole. The previous dia was close to 4.5-4.75mm and I really didnt notice a lot of difference except the new one was better. It was placed better and was from a new dowel so maye just the fact it was new made the biggest difference.

3- I don't notice a lot of difference by listening but I have become acustomed to listening to the various tones that are veru indicitive of the desired trace. I actually "feel" the best tune up instead of hear it. The whole violin back seems to vibrate against my shoulder. The neck even vibrates much more as well and the sound seems to resonate even after the bow is removed vs. just stopping quick.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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gkeese
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TerryT said
...and was cutting wood with the blade pointing toward himself. My late, great father always used to say "never point a knife blade at yourself, always aim it toward a friend".
Advice that has kept all my finder tips joined to my knuckles!

 

I laughed at that!  It is funny though, but I aim the knife at myself also.  Drives my wife crazy.  She just "knows" someday I'll have to rush to the ER because I cut my finger off.  I seem to have better control pulling it towards myself than if I pushed it away.  But when I read your statement I thought..."Oh God, my wife is right!!" tongue

"Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its entire life believing that it is stupid." -Albert Einstein

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Fiddlestix
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dunnodunnogkeese said

TerryT said
...and was cutting wood with the blade pointing toward himself. My late, great father always used to say "never point a knife blade at yourself, always aim it toward a friend".
Advice that has kept all my finder tips joined to my knuckles!

 

I laughed at that!  It is funny though, but I aim the knife at myself also.  Drives my wife crazy.  She just "knows" someday I'll have to rush to the ER because I cut my finger off.  I seem to have better control pulling it towards myself than if I pushed it away.  But when I read your statement I thought..."Oh God, my wife is right!!" tongue

I think you have more control pulling the knife toward's your body... And, just how big of a hole can you poke in yourself with a knife that size ??

 

                dunno

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Sofia Leo
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Fiddlestix said

I think you have more control pulling the knife toward's your body... And, just how big of a hole can you poke in yourself with a knife that size ??

 

                dunno

Depends on how sharp it is - those buggers can cut clear to the bone before you feel it. Ask me how I know...yell

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DanielB
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I was always taught to cut away from myself.  I ignored it often enough when I was younger and I have collected at least some of my scars that way.  Yeah, yeah, if you are being careful and all that.  But everyone has moments when the mind is elsewhere, and that is when safe habits can save you some blood. 

Everybody has the occasional dumb moments.  I know I sure do.  Just yesterday, we were going through some of the tools and implements we use for things like canning and freezing food here.  I was explaining to my daughter to please be really careful when washing the mandolin (the culinary slicing tool, not the musical instrument in this case) because we keep those blades very sharp.  Sure enough, I was holding the dang thing and not watching what I was doing and I sorta slid it and caught the outer edge of my right pinky finger on the blade.  

Nothing major, it was just a bit of blood and not a finger surface I use for violin or most other instruments.  Just slit the outer edge of the right pinky, but talk about feeling particularly dumb at that very moment.  It didn't need more than a band-aid and looked worse than it was, but still rather embarrassing when doing a "safety lecture".

duncecap

I think most of the blades used in luthier type work are small enough that it would be unlikely to kill yourself or even do major harm with cutting towards yourself (I don't claim to know enough to be 100% sure on that), but getting blood stains off of bare wood is enough of an inconvenience to probably want to avoid it. 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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springer
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The worst that I have ever cut myself was when I was cutting away from myself. Does that say anything about me? I wonder.dunno

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gkeese
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springer said
The worst that I have ever cut myself was when I was cutting away from myself. Does that say anything about me? I wonder.dunno

 

Now that is both ironic and funny!

I have to agree with Dan on one level...having the better habit of using it away from you is good, but having a better habit with less control may not be better than a bad habit with better control.  Especially if you are gonna cut yourself either way!

I have never cut myself with my pocket knife...but my razor knife has nicked me good a couple of times, but that is because a razor cuts so smooth it jumps to suddenly.  Either way...just being careful in the first place is the best way... or get someone else to do that "tricky" cut...let them be the crash dummie!  blink

"Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its entire life believing that it is stupid." -Albert Einstein

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Mt. Fiddler
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Kevin and Cdenny, thanks for the tip on the 328 (or 324).  Violin sellers beware!  We are armed with the power of information!violin-1260

 

Mt. Fiddler

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