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Violin pegs - hmmmm
Is there a difference between pegs for 3/4 and 4/4 violin ?
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BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
May 31, 2017 - 3:20 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1996
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Hmmm....  Right....  I have embarked on a little project which involves replacing the pegs on my e-bay fiddle.   She's an old-lady, dating from around 1920 or so, and has been played a LOT  ( you can tell ).   Oh - and she has a 33cm back - i.e. a 3/4 size fiddle.

Soooo - I have the new pegs - I happened to choose boxwood pegs - and they are pre-tapered, but, obviously, oversize and need to be shaved down.   I have a 30:1 taper reamer, and using that and a bit of careful measurement and the blade of a small plane, have fashioned a peg shaver.   It IS a bit of a heath-robinson affair, and at the end of the day, I rather suspect I might just buy the proper instrument anyway.

So I looked at some peg-shavers on the interwebby thing.  Now - here's the question - something that had never occurred to me - there is a "suggestion" in the product details for the shaver I'm looking at, that there is a difference between pegs for a 3/4 size fiddle and a 4/4 size fiddle....    This I do not understand....   It could of course just be the way it is worded, and implies that the device is suitable for 3/4 and 4/4 fiddles ( implying that it is not suitable for, say a 7/8 or 1/2 size etc etc etc - but even THEN I wouldn't be sure why.... ) - it says this ( their caps ) - " WITH PRECISION STEEL BLADES THAT CAN BE ADJUSTED WITH THE SCREW ATTACHED. FOR A 4/4 OR 3/4 VIOLIN PEGS."

Heyyy - this is not overly important - I KNOW the pegs I have, along with a quick-twist of the reamer and the shaver WILL fit just fine - this just raised questions in my mind.....  and maybe I'm not seeing the wood for the trees rofl

EDIT: I slept-on-this and everything is fine.   It was a definite case not seeing the wood for the trees - I had collected so much "research" on this and - the mechanics of doing it are absolutely straightforward, with sufficient attention to detail and care.  I have absolutely no problem about actually doing the job.

What had "thrown me" were comments from people who had done this, and the difference between fitting pegs to a NEW instrument peg-box, like during manufacture, or fitting them to either a reamed-out and/or a bushed peg-hole and what the final hole diameters would/could be.   I would have deleted the original post but I thought it worthy of showing how easily we can get ourselves (well, myself at least) confused.  D'oh and duncecap and facepalm     LOL

EDIT again - I just had to share this - I read of someone doing this, and, with all pegs removed, he started to ream out what he thought was the E string peg-hole.   Uh-huh - the lowest hole on the E-string peg side is actually the far-end of the G peg.......  this is NOT the hole he meant to ream out.... ended up having to fit a bush in the peg holes for the G !!! Easy done, but I'll bet it wasn't funny at the time !

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
June 1, 2017 - 12:32 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 12325

It pays to be careful. 🙂

It's always easy to remove wood but to put some back can be a bit more challenging.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
June 1, 2017 - 12:53 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1996
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Fiddlerman said
It pays to be careful. 🙂

Indeed it does !

It's always easy to remove wood but to put some back can be a bit more challenging.  

Errrr... yes !  Already put thought into this should it happen (or be required - although on initial inspection in spite of the holes having been already reamed sometime in the past I suspect there will be enough left to play with....)  But yes, fingers crossed though..

Got a few other things to attend to with the house move - but I'll keep y'all advised of the success or otherwise of my efforts as and when I get around to it....

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
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June 2, 2017 - 3:25 am
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Good luck Bill, it's satisfying doing a job like this on your instrument.

Re the peg shaver, I would say if you can get one for a reasonable price do it - I used the improvised plane iron method to shave mine and it was a pain to get it adjusted right. If I had to do it again I might look at getting one (the main problem is if you get a cheap one from China the price is just over the threshold for VAT so you end up getting stung with a handling surcharge).

Don't know the answer to the different sizes.

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BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
June 2, 2017 - 10:42 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1996
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Yes indeed - very satisfying - well it will be once done @Jim Dunleavy  !

I trialed my home made shaver - and well - I had already decided to get a pukka one - it's on order....

My next question is that it does seem that one of the holes may well require a bush, so, in the absence of certain tools I'm kind of investigating this "spiral-bushing" technique....  that'll be interesting....

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
June 2, 2017 - 12:21 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1996
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Ahhh - and in addition to the above - I've now emailed Ben and Felix - the "Ask A Luthier" folks at http://www.fiddlershop.com to see how they can advise me - they'll probably fall on the floor laughing at the concept of using a "spiral bushing" based on glue-impregnated craft-paper...  but I had to ask their opinion.... hahahaha

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
June 2, 2017 - 12:41 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 12325

BillyG said
Ahhh - and in addition to the above - I've now emailed Ben and Felix - the "Ask A Luthier" folks at http://www.fiddlershop.com to see how they can advise me - they'll probably fall on the floor laughing at the concept of using a "spiral bushing" based on glue-impregnated craft-paper...  but I had to ask their opinion.... hahahaha  

I think that the spiral bushing sounds like a great idea. Maybe not based on glue-impregnated craft-paper though.

Ben is no longer with us.

We now have Felix, Sean and Andres working as full time luthiers.
Maybe I'll ask Sean to do it.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
June 2, 2017 - 2:32 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1996
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Ahhh - super cool - I appreciate that ( as no doubt will other interested parties ) here's the email I sent - 

Ask a Luthier - a question -

Hi Ben and Felix,

   As well as being the owner of a fine FiddlerMan Concert, I have an old (1920's) mass produced fiddle - it happens to be a 3/4 but that's not overly important.   She has a nice loud voice and now she's properly set-up she sings quite nicely !   Anyway - the one down-side to this old fiddle are the tuning pegs and indeed the peg-holes.  I am in the process of replacing and re-seating all the pegs - well - I haven't started yet - but I have the basic tools, 30:1 reamer and peg-shaver plus a few other small tools, and I believe I can do the job - it will be my first adventure into any form of "serious" luthiery other than having done things like adjusting bridge and nut height and sound post position.

OK - so - the peg-holes have been reamed out in the past.  By inspection and measurement, I am pretty certain there is more than sufficient material in the peg box walls to accommodate a further reaming on three of the holes.  However, one of the holes has more significant "damage" - there is a deep groove in the hole - really strange - it may have been the result of an unfinished but over-enthusiastic cut with a straight-blade reamer - I don't know for sure yet - but - I rather suspect I may need to install a bush in that peg-hole....

Now - my biggest problem with that would be - not having a vertical drill - would be lining up the starter-holes for the reamer, and I was investigating other approaches.

I have read about "spiral-bushing" - employing a very thin shaving of maple or other wood, shaped around a true 30:1 mandrel / existing new peg, and glued into the hole.  I have even seen reference to this being done with craft-paper as well - and I understand the technique.

Really - here's my question - assuming I am unable to drill out a wooden bush and that I am forced by my lack of tools to actually go for the spiral bush - what are your opinions on doing this ?    For instance - would you simply say DON'T DO IT, or if you had to do it - again - for instance - what type of glue would I ( you ) use to build up the spiral ?  Also, what is your opinion on the use of this craft-paper spiral I referred to - obviously it is built up with several layers of the glue-impregnated paper - it seems odd to me - but I suppose paper was once wood and the impregnated glue would probably make it darned hard (depending on the glue type)....  still sounds strange to me - but.....

I suspect you are both now shaking in your boots saying - "Arghhhh, no, don't even go there, Bill" - but nonetheless I seek your advice !!!!

Many, many thanks in advance, and

Kind regards

Bill  ( BillyG on the FM forum )

 

LOL - there yah go...

And TY @Fiddlerman !  Cool

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
June 6, 2017 - 8:39 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 12325

Just forwarded this to Felix. I'll also make sure he connects to the luthiers email.

Thanks for reminding me.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
June 6, 2017 - 10:10 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1996
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Cheers @Fiddlerman thumbs-up

No rush - it'd gonna be into next week before I really get my hands dirty with this anyway....   Although - potential good news - it looks as if I might JUST get away without the bushing on the heavily grooved peg-hole - although - having gone this far, I'm tempted to experiment !   [ The real reason I got the instrument was that (a) it was cheap and (b) at the price, I really expected it to be unusable and was going to disassemble it completely, then put her back together.......   But, it turns out to be quite a fun little instrument now I've set her up... so, she lives on to sing anther day ! cool]

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
June 9, 2017 - 12:16 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 12325
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OK. Got it!

I spoke to him and forwarded this link but in the meanwhile, he prefers making dowels but wooden spiral bushings work fine if done properly.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
June 9, 2017 - 12:20 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1996
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Thanks for that ! thumbs-up

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
June 19, 2017 - 5:35 am
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1996
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Latest update - just had the occasional few minutes to check things out and get used to the tools - I made a "sacrificial-peg-box" LOL so I could experiment with things - used the peg shaver - took a bit of setting up - not difficult, but you do need to stop and think....

IMG_20170619_095721.jpgImage Enlarger

What else - oh - yes - look-after-your-tools - Here's the taper reamer - be very careful with the cutting edges  - at all costs avoid bumping or clunking them against other metal tools in the box !   Damage the edge of the reamer - I rather suspect that without access to specialised tools, you might as well just go buy another....

IMG_20170619_095515.jpgImage Enlarger

  Of course, with aid of an old DVD marker pen - (perfect fit!) - the problem goes away (if you remember to use it) - IMG_20170619_095537.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Got to go away for another few days - so I should get around to the final fitting this weekend coming (hopefully!) - but - thanks to the short time I've spent on this so far, I don't foresee any problems....

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes. D'oh - guntohead.JPG

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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