FORUM

Please have a look at our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Major Scale in Fourths
modal applications for blues
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
Avatar
bluesviolin
Members

Regulars
November 2, 2015 - 5:37 am
Member Since: October 10, 2011
Forum Posts: 125
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've been revisiting an old book called "Patterns for Jazz" and picking up where I left off a few years ago with the Major scale in fourths. Here's what the author said about this study:

"Fourth intervals have become extremely popular among improvisers, in recent years, both because the interval interests them and because fourths tend to break away from the sound and rigid function of thirds heard in ordinary ruminations on chords built in thirds. Successive perfect fourth intervals will be discussed later, as they are applied to "free form' improvisation. The following studies will prepare the student to play general fourth intervals (sometimes perfect, sometimes augmented) as they are determined by the tones of major and minor scales".

 

This book provides a dozen or more patterns for a plethora of jazz stuff. The first and simplest example pattern for an ascending C maj scale in fourths are as follows:

CFB, DGC, EAD, FBE, GCF, ADG, BEA, CFB.

Modal applications for Blues (and other things): C maj can play over A aeolian, D can play over E dorian, and so on. If playing blues in E, say over the IV chord, using the Dmaj scale (which is E dorian) Third's and fourth's patterns work very well. When practicing I play the patterns up and down the ladder, but when jamming, I can use portions of the patterns (ascending and descending) and mix them in and out with pents and blues scales. I don't play these patterns in straight time, but put a swingy lilt on them.

I really like the fourths, as per the author's preface. Comments? Questions? (if I can answer questions!) 

"Striving to attain Mediocrity"

Avatar
Mark
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
November 2, 2015 - 9:57 pm
Member Since: September 30, 2014
Forum Posts: 290
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bluesviolin,

Quick question on the notation CFB, DGC, etc. Are you playing this as a broken cord or just progressing from playing CF to playing FB to the DG or mixing it up as the sounds fits the song FB, DG, CF etc.?

 

Thanks, 

Mark

Avatar
bluesviolin
Members

Regulars
November 3, 2015 - 12:53 am
Member Since: October 10, 2011
Forum Posts: 125
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Mark  I think you would just call them triplets, ascending the notes of the Cmaj scale in fourths, (but not perfect fourths as per the authors preface) I haven't got as far as "mixing it up as the sounds fit the song" I'm content with doing one pattern set (or portion thereof) and mixing it up with a different pattern set in another place in the tune.  They also show 4 note patterns ascending from low C eg: CFBE, DGCF, EADG, FBEA, GCFB, GCFB, ADGC.

Here is another pattern I really like. the first set of 3 notes go up and the second set of 3 notes come back down. If you're a bit interested in this, please try playing this pattern, the first C note is low and the second C note of the second set of triplets touches the higher C octave before coming back down.

CFB CGD - EAD EBF - GCF GDA - BEA BFC. they show descending patterns where the notes go from low to high, and ascending patterns where the notes go from high to low and vice-versa.

I've done a lot of work with the same kind of patterns only in thirds, mostly for keys of C D G. I can convert each of these into Aeolian, Dorian & Mixo and cover quite a bit of ground that way. The thirds sound good in blues, even folk & country in some cases. But I'm determined to work on these 'imperfect' fourths and apply them the same way because I think it's worth it.

These fourths are challenging my muscle memory.... but that's a good thing! 

"Striving to attain Mediocrity"

Avatar
Mark
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
November 3, 2015 - 4:14 am
Member Since: September 30, 2014
Forum Posts: 290
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Blues violin,

Thanks for the explanation 

Mark

Avatar
bluesviolin
Members

Regulars
November 29, 2015 - 5:57 am
Member Since: October 10, 2011
Forum Posts: 125
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I made a good discovery about 5 days ago. I tried these fourths over Lydian mode for the first time and I was blown away with how great they sounded with Lydian. Like they were made for each other. The fourths need to be phrased differently than playing them over blues, but there seems to be more phrasing options over Lydian. 

 

I've had a couple of nice Lydian backgrounds programmed into my sequencer for quite a long time in C lydian and F lydian, so then I went on a quest for more Lydian friendly chords that I could teach some progressions to my guitar jamming buddies, a couple of them being Maj9 and diminished7. 

 

The Major scale used for C Lydian is G Maj. and for F Lydian it's C Maj. Most Pop, rock, blues, folk, country are in Aeolian. Dorian, or Mixolydian, so it's quite hard to find a tune written in Lydian. The Beatles 'Blue Jay Way' is one, there are a few from 'West Side Story'. Joe Satriani and guys like that play a fair bit in Lydian, but I won't be able to use this much with other people. But I don't care, some things you do for personal satisfaction. 

 

Anyways, I was quite excited about this, so I thought I'd post it.

"Striving to attain Mediocrity"

Avatar
Uzi
Georgia
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
November 29, 2015 - 10:07 pm
Member Since: January 19, 2014
Forum Posts: 890
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Do you suspect that the movement by fourths works best with the lydian mode because it is the 4th mode of the major scale?  I wonder if it would also work best over the 4th mode of the harmonic minor scale as well. 

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright

Avatar
bluesviolin
Members

Regulars
November 30, 2015 - 5:39 am
Member Since: October 10, 2011
Forum Posts: 125
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Uzi that has crossed my mind, but I really don't know. They seem to 'fit in' with Lydian really well. I think they also work well with blues, but with more tension.

 

re: Harmonic minor modes: I looked into these a few years back, but I can't remember why I didn't pursue it. Do you use them, or know how they work? what would be some applications for them. Meanwhile, I'm gonna see if google says anything.

 Ok, I found them with harmonic minor scale starting at A note... Locrian #6 starting on B note etc. I guess if I worked it the same way as the church modes, I'd hafta learn the harmonic minor scale in all (most) keys, and visualize the harmonic minor scale patterns over 4 strings. hmmm, my spidey sense tells me that may not be the best way to do it. But I'm getting ahead of myself! the google site says they are not commonly used, and I guess you'd hafta find chords/chord progressions for applications for each mode? 

 

What do you think? 

"Striving to attain Mediocrity"

Avatar
Uzi
Georgia
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
November 30, 2015 - 12:14 pm
Member Since: January 19, 2014
Forum Posts: 890
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well, once you start playing by fourths, you've kind of gone off the musical reservation into the renegade land of jazz players.  Considering that the guitar strings are a fourth (or augmented fourth in the case of the B string) apart I can see the appeal from an ease of play perspective, but I've never found that sound particularly melodious.

Don't take anything from here on as gospel, because we're getting out toward the horizon of my music theory knowledge and mostly one would have to rely on the sound more than the theory. 

Nevertheless, just like the church modes, the natural, harmonic and melodic minor scales can also be used in a modal fashion.  As I'm sure you are aware, the harmonic minor is the same as the aeolian mode (natural minor) with a 7#.  Looking at the harmonic minor in the key of A as an example we have:

Mode 1:  A-B-C-D-E-F-G#

Mode 2: B-C-D-E-F-G#-A

Mode 3: C-D-E-F-G#-A-B

Mode 4: D-E-F-G#-A-B-C

Mode 5: E-F-G#-A-B-C-D

Mode 6: F-G#-A-B-C-D-E

Mode 7: G#-A-B-C-D-E-F

Since you say that you like the sound of fourths played against a lydian mode, that scale, in the same key, is:

F Lydian: F-G-A-B-C-D-E

Notice that the lydian mode is the same as the Mode 6 harmonic minor except that the harmonic minor scale has an augmented 2nd.  Therefore, it should work about like the lydian mode. With regard to constructing chords, the harmonic minor chord progressions, I believe, are Min,Dim,Aug,Min,Maj,Maj,Dim.  I'm conjecturing that since the start is the sixth note of the root scale that one would start with a major chord. Constructing a root chord for mode 6 harmonic minor (I think) could be F-A-C-(E) which is an F or F Maj 7. One would proceed from there for the chord progression depending on what progression you choose to employ.  

It might be of interest that modes 4 and 5 of the harmonic minor are used extensively in certain types of music, for example jewish/klezmer music where mode 4 is called the misheberach scale and mode 5 is called the ahava rabah scale.  In jazz and rock and roll mode 5 is most frequently called the phrygian dominant scale. 

I realize that this has sort of veered away from your original thought -- sorry. 

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright

Avatar
bluesviolin
Members

Regulars
December 1, 2015 - 1:21 am
Member Since: October 10, 2011
Forum Posts: 125
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Uzi hey, don't be sorry! I find this stuff fascinating (albeit, overwhelming at times) and thanks for the detailed reply. Yes, this is the same list I found and included the names.

I've just been fooling around a bit with them. number 2 seems to work with both an Emin & Amin blues scale. Some pretty interesting sounds in here, and I'm sure they would 'come out' more with proper backgrounds. I'm gonna mess about with these in my 'spare time'.

 

I don't even wanna think about modes for the natural and melodic minors right now, may have a nervous breakdown...haha.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to expound on this. 

"Striving to attain Mediocrity"

Avatar
bluesviolin
Members

Regulars
December 12, 2015 - 4:33 am
Member Since: October 10, 2011
Forum Posts: 125
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

...just an update. I've expanded my major scale keys for the fourths to G,D,A,E, and C and F.

 G,D,A,E, played in mixolydian pretty much cover everything for the I-IV-V for blues in E and A. (mixo being commonly used for the Dom7 chords in blues.)

 Cmaj scale is for F lydian, and Fmaj scale is for A phrygian. I have some nice lydian & Phrygian backgrounds in my sequencer.

 I'm ascending in fourths and descending in 3rds, experimenting with several different phrasings, especially for Lydian & Phrygian.

 I haven't discovered anything so interesting as this since the modal min7b5 arpeggios. working this stuff gradually into the jams.

"Striving to attain Mediocrity"

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 231

Currently Online:
48 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today harvestman, fiddlinmama
Upcoming HeadCheese, Mad_Wed, ButteryStuffs, kit, makinnoise

Top Posters:

coolpinkone: 3755

Mad_Wed: 2849

Barry: 2661

Fiddlestix: 2637

Oliver: 2439

DanielB: 2379

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1

Members: 3555

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 16

Forums: 56

Topics: 6441

Posts: 80327

Newest Members:

elaine a, Mukundan, MyMing, dbsimon, stirlingite771, mdedmon

Administrators: Fiddlerman: 11702, KindaScratchy: 1651