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How much pressure applied in vibrating?
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RosinedUp
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November 4, 2012 - 7:38 am
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Now and then I casually try vibrato.  A question comes up when I do.

Fiddlerman's video shows action at the knuckle next to the fingertip.  That is, the last finger bone is flexed and extended rapidly relative to the rest of the finger.

I guess the idea is to roll the fingertip up and down the string while it is gripping the string, I mean that the fingertip is not supposed to slide on the string, unless I am wrong.

How do you keep the finger from sliding on the string?  Is there muscle action in the finger to flex and extend the tip?  Or does the action mainly come from moving the rest of the finger?  If the latter, I feel the need to press down on the string while vibrating, and without the thumb or hand giving much support to the neck to oppose the downward pressure.

I mean that I have been keeping the thumb and hand from touching the neck while vibrating, to keep the friction against the neck from dragging against the vibrato action. 

So I have to oppose the downward pressure of the vibrating finger by applying leverage with the chin, with the shoulder rest acting as the fulcrum.

Am I thinking about this wrongly?  I mean is it all wrong for the chin to be pushing down more than usual while vibrating?

Please give some words to set me straight on this.

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Picklefish
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"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Fiddlerman
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November 4, 2012 - 9:20 pm
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Just use enough weight to push the string down to the fingerboard. Don't user more pressure with your chin. IMO, you don't need to practice on anything but your violin. Try doing it real slowly so that you feel the finger tip roll. You can do it while watching TV or while reading a book or whatever you spend time doing that allows you to have a fiddle in one hand.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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KindaScratchy
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November 5, 2012 - 12:41 pm
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Thanks for posting those videos, PickleFish. I'm especially intrigued by the vibrato trick because a few times I've played around doing "pretend" vibrato and that's exactly what I did...bounced up and down. I'm going to try it tonight and see if I can exaggerate it to the point that it becomes real vibrato, as he suggests.

crossedfingers

When the work's all done and the sun's settin' low,

I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow.

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Picklefish
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November 5, 2012 - 1:29 pm
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I love the FM videos but sometimes a different something rings with people who wouldnt hear it otherwise, can be tone, face, presentation etc. Of course with the net, there is an endless supply of something different. Im working on Vibrato too so we need a forum post of Vibrato progress vids, I wonder if there is a vibrato concerto?

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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ratvn
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November 5, 2012 - 10:39 pm
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picklefish said
I love the FM videos but sometimes a different something rings with people who wouldnt hear it otherwise, can be tone, face, presentation etc. 

 

I totally agree with you there. Thank you for posting those videos, very informative and great.

Now I have a problem with my bowing at the very basic. How much pressure is correct to apply on the bow, say at midpoint between bridge and fingerboard. Some say let the bow flows by itself without much pressure, and some have the stick halfway to the hair. I am confused and hope that some would be able to help. Thanks much in advance.

Best Regards,

Robert

 

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ratvn
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Hi, I think I got an answer here so this is an update to my question earlier. See what you all think of this.

 

Thank you.

Robert

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Picklefish
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good stuff, what does he say about vibrato I wonder? thanks for sharing.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Fiddlestix
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Fiddlerman's answer is the only pertaining to the question.

RosinedUp is asking about finger pressure, not how to do vibrato or how much bow pressure.

PF,,,why don't you give us a video demonstration on how to do it all.    violin-student

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Picklefish
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Here is me demonstrating the best way to do it all, hope it helps.

 

 

feel free to watch all of my videos and buy my album!

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Composer
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The problem with the encyclopedic (information dump) approach to teaching the violin is that it assumes no prerequisites are required for a topic area such as vibrato.  I don't think its sensible to pick up a violin on day 21 and do nothing else but learn vibrato for the next 3 months.  But thats what pretty much ends up happening in the repertoire-driven learning approach such as Suzuki.  You listen to 'Row lightly' on the mp3 file and you immediately determine that continuous vibrato is the key to "sounding good".   Then training your hand for vibrato amounts to loosening the 1st joint in the finger and of course the usual "Just do it" philosophy.   But it doesn't work.  None of the vibrato videos from anyone will work because you can't isolate the problem in the way its demonstrated in the videos.  For example, lack of skill in coordination with the bow, lack of strength in the fingers, no independence of the fingers, etc ruin the simplistic attempt to teach it.

I come back to the test of evenness again.  If the original poster cannot play all the 2-octave scales and arpeggios in 1st position 9 out 10 times with evenness of pitch, rhythm, and sound then its pointless to learn vibrato.  There has to be some sequence pertaining to learning otherwise it just degenerates into a fools paradise of working hard with no purpose. 

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Mad_Wed
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November 6, 2012 - 5:21 pm
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Composer said
..  None of the vibrato videos from anyone will work because you can't isolate the problem in the way its demonstrated in the videos.  For example, lack of skill in coordination with the bow, lack of strength in the fingers, no independence of the fingers, etc ...

Agreed. But how will one learn vibrato without trying? Where will one get coordination and finger independence if one will not work on particulair things, that pointing out those things that one have to work on? Playing scales and arpeggios definitelly won't solve the lack of coordination problems.

I come back to the test of evenness again.  If the original poster cannot play all the 2-octave scales and arpeggios in 1st position 9 out 10 times with evenness of pitch, rhythm, and sound then its pointless to learn vibrato.  

I can't play all those things in the way that You've said: no constant pitch nor rhythm. Though i'm practicing vibrato. Having fun. No pointless things were detected!

=)

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ratvn
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Mad_Wed said 

Agreed. But how will one learn vibrato without trying? 

I can't play all those things in the way that You've said: no constant pitch nor rhythm. Though i'm practicing vibrato. Having fun. No pointless things were detected!

 

I'm with you, Mad_Wed. I've been practicing vibrato since first month in learning violin. It definitely did not harm anything at all, but indeed get more finger flexibility which is better for intonation correction.

And yes, I do have fun learning it as well.

 

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cdennyb
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cheerspicklefish said
Here is me demonstrating the best way to do it all, hope it helps.

 

 

feel free to watch all of my videos and buy my album!

 

I thought you had shorter hair than that??? dunno

When did you let it grow out?cheers

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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KindaScratchy
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November 6, 2012 - 6:56 pm
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cdennyb said

cheerspicklefish said
Here is me demonstrating the best way to do it all, hope it helps.

 

 

feel free to watch all of my videos and buy my album!

 

I thought you had shorter hair than that??? dunno

When did you let it grow out?cheers

And what's up with the pants, PF? rofl

Composer said  There has to be some sequence pertaining to learning otherwise it just degenerates into a fools paradise of working hard with no purpose. 

Yes and no. Sure, you have to go about learning somewhat methodically, but I've found that learning a musical instrument as an adult is definitely a process. It's often two steps forward, one step back.

You learn how to do one thing and you think you've got it down, then it stops working. Then, later after you've struggled and mastered other things, all of a sudden the first thing clicks into place.

Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but it does to me. My point is that learning is not entirely linear, but it is iterative.

The most important thing, at least among this crowd, is that learning the fiddle is fun!

done

When the work's all done and the sun's settin' low,

I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow.

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Picklefish
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November 6, 2012 - 7:43 pm
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Composer said
The problem with the encyclopedic (information dump) approach to teaching the violin is that it assumes no prerequisites are required for a topic area such as vibrato.  I don't think its sensible to pick up a violin on day 21 and do nothing else but learn vibrato for the next 3 months.  But thats what pretty much ends up happening in the repertoire-driven learning approach such as Suzuki.  My experience with Suzuki so far has shown a disdain for vibrato, it doesnt appear in my books till book 4. Up until then the focus is on intonation and accuracy. However, once a skill is learned the students are encourage to practice them on the easier songs.

ou listen to 'Row lightly' on the mp3 file and you immediately determine that continuous vibrato is the key to "sounding good".   Then training your hand for vibrato amounts to loosening the 1st joint in the finger and of course the usual "Just do it" philosophy.   But it doesn't work.  None of the vibrato videos from anyone will work because you can't isolate the problem in the way its demonstrated in the videos.  For example, lack of skill in coordination with the bow, lack of strength in the fingers, no independence of the fingers, etc ruin the simplistic attempt to teach it.

I come back to the test of evenness again.  If the original poster cannot play all the 2-octave scales and arpeggios in 1st position 9 out 10 times with evenness of pitch, rhythm, and sound then its pointless to learn vibrato.  There has to be some sequence pertaining to learning otherwise it just degenerates into a fools paradise of working hard with no purpose. 

As has been said before by wiser people than me. Vibrato is a way to cheat the lack of intonation skill. It automatically masks inaccuracy. But...it sounds so cool that everyone is dying to learn it so quickly that it doesnt matter to the avg joe. everyone includes me but not necessarily a literal everyone as im sure some will point out to me. lol. read below.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Picklefish
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As far as actually learning the violin..encyclopedic approach, methodical progressive approach.....all of the above. The problem is what to learn and when. what is used to develop other skills and what is a skill developer in itself. There are major gaps in knowledge in the self help books which I believe is a concentrated effort to force people to find teachers to fill those gaps. Im gonna write a book of nothing but gap fillers! lol. once I learn it all that is!. And to make things worse, add fiddling styles to the mix and the options become mind numbing. As far as I understand it once you learn to hold the thing and bow good its all about skills. I have a list of skills for left hand and right hand. each of these skills has a beginning level and an advanced level usually incorporating speed of playing and coordiation from slow to wicked pagannini fast for each skill. Once you have the ability to play several skills at the 16th note cut time speeds or 220, you  can have fun with composistions. This can take up to six years to accomplish imo. read below.  so, make a list, check it twice, practice it till you are good and then have fun. FMs lists to the right regarding basics vs advanced are pretty well lined up with the list I have.devil-violin

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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