FORUM

Please have a look at our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Interesting Problem
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
July 15, 2011 - 6:52 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have several string instruments but mainly play an e-violin and, sometimes, a regular acoustic.   I found that the more I played the e-violin, the worse I became on the acoustic (?).  I was having a terrible time with string crossings on the acoustic.
The two instruments were the same (standard) size and dimensions.  The e-violin bridge was about 1 mm higher but that did not look like much, visually.
Then I noticed something else.  The TILT of the two instruments.  The e-violin was playing at about 45 degrees.  The acoustic was much flatter at about 30 degrees.
I make my own chin rests (no shoulder rest) so I was able to arrange for the acoustic to also lean to 45 degrees.  The improvement was immediate !  In fact, I closed my eyes to imagine how the e-violin felt and the modified acoustic now felt just about identical (i.e. for string crossings and for use of the bow).
I did not imagine that the violin angle could make so much difference but I'm convinced now. (I don't have the energy to go back and check out my violas ….. not yet)

coffee2

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Daniel
Dipolog City, Philippines
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
July 15, 2011 - 10:33 pm
Member Since: April 26, 2011
Forum Posts: 203
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

That's similar to my problem too, when I got my shoulder rest, I lost some of the technique from 3 months back, so I'm back to playing without it or adjusting it to the same angle as it was without the rest. Thanks for sharing it. Has anyone else experienced this?

Short-term Goal:

Avatar
kakashi540
California
Member
Members
July 15, 2011 - 11:15 pm
Member Since: July 14, 2011
Forum Posts: 37
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

wow. i never realized it till now, but what you guys say makes lots of sense. i used to play without a shoulder rest for years. after about 3 years, i finally bought my first shoulder rest and i had a really hard time playing, my orchestra teacher actually made me stay after school to practice for about two weeks straight!violin-student

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
July 16, 2011 - 8:22 am
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Daniel

You seem to be pretty observant, but have you noticed any effects of elevation with a shoulder rest ?  Many argue that a SR can raise a violin above the normal plane of bowing action causing the player to play "uphill". 

My experience suggests that this is true but just the violin holding aspect might be more important at the time for a student.

(Hint:  Look at FiddlerMan set-up.)

The increase with height AND the possible change in tilt can make  major differences in how a violin"feels" with a SR.

coffee2

PS  My fading memory recalls that pros play at a steep angle.  Maybe 45 degrees.  At least, the orchestra people who are sitting  down.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Daniel
Dipolog City, Philippines
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
July 17, 2011 - 9:20 pm
Member Since: April 26, 2011
Forum Posts: 203
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

That too, it feels unnatural, like my hand is hanging instead of holding the violin, so I'm constantly tweaking the rest around...and then out of exasperation I take it off completely dunno About the bigger CR, Pierre suggested a change, but the problem is, it's not easy to find here where I live, and online is way too expensive....but the sponge thing works 😉

Short-term Goal:

Avatar
Robyn.fnq
Queensland, Australia
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
July 17, 2011 - 10:09 pm
Member Since: July 7, 2011
Forum Posts: 579
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

"I have several string instruments but mainly play an e-violin and, sometimes, a regular acoustic.   I found that the more I played the e-violin, the worse I became on the acoustic (?)."

I've heard this many times ... some people say never let a student start with electric because they'll never master the acoustic, and supposedly the electric is easier to learn, hence the attraction.

I've only had one shoulder rest, but I've experimented with different sponges, and cut them to fit more comfortably, one little chunk at a time. I haven't mastered playing without one, slippery shoulders, maybe that's why I'm more comfortable with the sponge's grip.  I haven't noticed the angle change, I'll look out for that.

violin-student

If you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right.

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
July 17, 2011 - 10:30 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think that violin position becomes important due to "muscle memory".  Once you know, subconsciously, where the violin is supposed to be then all your actions will reference that usual position.  Maybe the moral is, don't change it ??   coffee2

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Daniel
Dipolog City, Philippines
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
July 17, 2011 - 10:33 pm
Member Since: April 26, 2011
Forum Posts: 203
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

True enough. I figured that, since it's just been a year, I could change. Who knew this much muscle memory got stored in that time.... 

Short-term Goal:

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
July 18, 2011 - 8:19 am
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Robyn

Any bad publicity for the electric is lack of facts.  The facts are:

1) The electric has no sound post or chronic sound post problems.

2) The electric has the same string lengths and acoustically important dimensions as an acoustic.

3) The electric has no "f" holes to feed raucous sound into the left ear.  ("under the chin" feed-back) ( I must add that this is a big help for intonation. )

4)  My electric set-up has no less than 8 amplifier knobs I can tinker with for a wide variety of sounds.  I can go from classical to country with the turn of one knob.

5)  With those same knobs, the electric can maintain the same sound even with adverse weather changes (and no luthier($) required).

6)  Compared to my 4 other string instruments the electric is simply a better musical instrument.  Certainly more fun.  It is NOT in the same category as the best classical acoustics FOR CLASSICAL MUSIC.

7)  The electric is the only hope for the praise band which includes a french horn from the marching band cheerleader

8)  The electric is NOT "easier".  Why would it be?  I make the same mistakes on the electric as with the acoustic.  In fact, my electric weighs a little more and it has taken me time to adjust.  It seems to weigh about as much as my 15" viola.

coffee2

I will admit that I avoid playing the electric during a thunder storm dazed

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
July 18, 2011 - 12:47 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 11717
10sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Playing the violin is playing the violin no matter what. However, I must agree that learning on the electric will allow you to camouflage the quality of sound by using effects such as reverb, echo, and much more to improve the result.

Also, playing an electric fiddle without sound leaves less indication of how much bow pressure to add, contact point vs sound quality etc.

This is by no means intended as bad publicity for the electric violin though. LOL
I have had a blast with my Zeta. 

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Robyn.fnq
Queensland, Australia
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
July 19, 2011 - 1:18 am
Member Since: July 7, 2011
Forum Posts: 579
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@ Oliver

I didn't think I was giving electric publicity, good or bad.  I simply stated that I'd heard similar to your comment previously, and others as well.  I don't own an electric, so I have refrained from personal observations.

Apologies if I've subconsciously upset anyone.

dazed

If you think you can, or you think you can't, you're probably right.

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
July 19, 2011 - 6:18 am
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

No problem.  I just like to promote information that will help with making the right decisions either for or against.  Unfortunately, violin stories might not always be accurate or complete.  The trick is to make the right choices for each individual case.

coffee2

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
SanSkritA
Look up Sanskrita Dellerba on Facebook
Member
Members
July 19, 2011 - 4:23 pm
Member Since: June 5, 2011
Forum Posts: 35
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Oliver said:

I think that violin position becomes important due to "muscle memory".  Once you know, subconsciously, where the violin is supposed to be then all your actions will reference that usual position.  Maybe the moral is, don't change it ??   coffee2

Yeah, I would agree with this. I completely believe this to be true. One of the most special aspects of the violin is the fact that as a violinist it takes great sensitivity to feel the instrument. It takes time to actually become attuned to the way your arms should move, learning to have a more flexible wrist, the height of your elbows etc. There is so much to take into consideration. I could easily see how it could change everything depending on the angle of the instrument itself. I personally am just a begginner and I am going back and forth between a shoulder rest and not using one. My collar bone gets sore when I do not have a shoulder rest... What should I do here? I am not so sure what the best option would be but I do know that because I am so new at it whatever I do do I am establishing a habit and should be aware of that!

 

violin_girl

SanSkritA

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
July 19, 2011 - 4:47 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The first thing is to be sure you have something cushioning the metal bracket that is holding your chin rest ….. if you use one.  Many people will use a chamois cloth to do that.

Your collar bone won't get irritated unless you are doing something to cause it.  You have to allow that your left arm will do part of the work for you. 

Another possible thing is to raise your scroll end up a little when you play.  Maybe 1".  This will transfer some pressure more evenly into the body.

coffee2

What chin rest and shoulder rest are you using?

Does your violin rest on the collar bone when you use a shoulder rest?

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Sofia Leo
Lebanon, Oregon
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
July 19, 2011 - 5:21 pm
Member Since: April 6, 2011
Forum Posts: 464
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I'm really interested to know what others are doing to combat the collarbone ouchie. I've seen many pictures of the "violin hickey" that "serious" players have on their neck and look upon it with astonishment - I mean, why let that happen?

Here on the Oregon Coast it doesn't get especially warm, even in the Summer, so I generally wear a sweater all the time, but lately it's been warm enough to require only a (long sleeved) t-shirt so my fiddle is definitely causing some pain and I can see how it would leave a mark after not much time. I really don't want to change my setup whenever I change clothes...

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
July 19, 2011 - 6:37 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

There is no way that I can tell you a perfect answer but maybe I can give you some ideas.
I would guess that you have a very comfortable hold of the violin BEFORE you begin to play.  When you are at rest.  What is it that you do when playing that causes your initial hold to become uncomfortable?  I would think that maybe changing the angle of the violin might irritate the collar bone.  That is having the collar bone lay one way and the violin has wandered off? 

Another thing is gripping too hard with the chin (the "death grip").  No piece of music requires maximum chin pressure all the time.  Let the left hand do a little work.

Try playing with the scroll up or down a little.  If you go down you will transfer lift to the underside of the chin.  If you go up, you will transfer some weight back into the torso.  There probably is a "best place" for you somewhere in between.

coffee2

Do you pad your chin rest bracket?  All that metal can hurt.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
SanSkritA
Look up Sanskrita Dellerba on Facebook
Member
Members
July 26, 2011 - 9:04 am
Member Since: June 5, 2011
Forum Posts: 35
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Oliver said:

The first thing is to be sure you have something cushioning the metal bracket that is holding your chin rest ….. if you use one.  Many people will use a chamois cloth to do that.

Your collar bone won't get irritated unless you are doing something to cause it.  You have to allow that your left arm will do part of the work for you. 

Another possible thing is to raise your scroll end up a little when you play.  Maybe 1".  This will transfer some pressure more evenly into the body.

coffee2

What chin rest and shoulder rest are you using?

Does your violin rest on the collar bone when you use a shoulder rest?

I have been trying a Kun collapsible. I have not tried a chin rest.

Thanks for your advise, i appreciate it.

SanSkritA

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
July 26, 2011 - 7:11 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 11717
18sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

It is rare that anyone plays without a Chin-rest. Maybe you mean that you have not tried changing chin-rests. It may be impossible to find the perfect feeling holding a violin with the wrong set-up but if you find it you will almost know it. It's really not a bad idea to do everything in your power to find the best possible chin-rest then a pad or shoulder-rest if needed under the fiddle.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
July 27, 2011 - 10:21 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 11717
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Good luck with that. I don't recommend it but as long as you don't have a need to hold the violin at your chin and collar or shoulder. If you just balance it there and use your left hand to hold without tensing up it should be OK. Keep us posted. 

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
July 27, 2011 - 2:29 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 11717
20sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Sounds good to me. Happy to hear that you changed your mind about the chin-rest. The fact that you already know not to clamp down on it tells me that you will do fine. I look forward to the day that we fiddle players can easily find the right chin-rest at any music store. Right now, sadly, there are few places that carry any good variety of rests to try out.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 231

Currently Online:
37 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Mad_Wed, Prudence, ButteryStuffs, kit, makinnoise

Top Posters:

coolpinkone: 3767

Mad_Wed: 2849

Barry: 2661

Fiddlestix: 2637

Oliver: 2439

DanielB: 2379

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1

Members: 3563

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 16

Forums: 56

Topics: 6446

Posts: 80405

Newest Members:

bo, EKBanjo, charlieD, Folky fiddler, Morgenes42, stringo

Administrators: Fiddlerman: 11717, KindaScratchy: 1651