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OK. Now I'm a little confused
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Ferret
Byron Bay Australia
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November 27, 2013 - 3:10 pm
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There has been talk of tuning the violin at other than 440 hz. 

I've been lead to believe that 440 was the international standard.

But now on the forum I'm hearing talk of tuning at 442, 443, and 444.

OK, I like variety as much as anyone but what am I supposed to be tuning to?

fainting-1344

 

Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of dunno ..... What was I saying???? facepalm

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HatefulPain
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November 27, 2013 - 3:33 pm
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In US it's 440 as standard. In Europe it's 442 and 443.

'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.

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Ferret
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November 27, 2013 - 3:49 pm
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HatefulPain said
In US it's 440 as standard. In Europe it's 442 and 443.

Thanks @HatefulPain 

But 'I'm' in neither rofl

I did find this explanation on Wikipedia 

 

A440, which has a frequency of 440 Hz, is the musical note A above middle C and serves as a general tuning standard for musical pitch.

Prior to the standardization on 440 Hz, many countries and organizations followed theAustrian government's 1885 recommendation of 435 Hz. The American music industry reached an informal standard of 440 Hz in 1926, and some began using it in instrument manufacturing. In 1936 the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz.[1] This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 (reaffirmed by them in 1975) as ISO 16.[2]Although not universally accepted, since then it has served as the audio frequency reference for the calibration of acoustic equipment and the tuning of pianos, violins, and other musical instruments.

A440 is widely used as concert pitch in United Kingdom[3] and the United States. In continental Europe the frequency of the A is commonly 442 Hz and 443 Hz.[4][5] In the period instrument movement, a consensus has arisen around a modern baroque pitch of 415 Hz (currently, A flat), baroque for some special church music (Chorton pitch) at 466 Hz (A sharp) and classical pitch at 432 Hz.[6]

The A above middle C is sometimes referred to as Concert A. (The C above Concert A is called Concert C.)

 

I'm not a little confused anymore. Now it's 'total'roflol

 
 

 

Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of dunno ..... What was I saying???? facepalm

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StoneDog
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November 27, 2013 - 9:59 pm
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You could probably tune to whatever you want. > As long as the other strings are in sync. Playing with others > a standard is best. > What I find when jamming with others is that most are so anxious to start showing their stuff, that they won't spend a small amount of time to just make sure all are in tune and in sync. > such a waste of what could be. I have often wonder about when music first hit the human ear what was really the standard??? Guess it was what sounded nice.

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laserbrainz
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November 27, 2013 - 11:26 pm
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Why can't it all just be the same??

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RosinedUp
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laserbrainz said
Why can't it all just be the same??

One reason it can't be completely standardized is that orchestras may play with instruments for which arbitrary tuning is not practical, for example a piano, or an organ with hundreds of pipes. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_A says: 

Even within one church, the pitch used could vary over time because of the way organs were tuned. Generally, the end of an organ pipe would be hammered inwards to a cone, or flared outwards, to raise or lower the pitch. When the pipe ends became frayed by this constant process they were all trimmed down, thus raising the overall pitch of the organ.

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HatefulPain
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November 28, 2013 - 3:26 am
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440 are the one that's most used worldwide, so if you have to choose just one I guess 440 would be the safest alternative. 

'Armed with theory, practice becomes meaningful. Through practice, theory becomes fulfilled.' - Egon von Neindorff.

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Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
November 28, 2013 - 11:28 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
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Seriously guys, it doesn't matter. I tune high because I'm used to it. It only matters (as StoneDog said) if you don't match all your strings to the chosen tuning note. I don't care in the slightest which A we use.
I'll give an A at the beginning of the click-track and you'll all tune before recording OK? :)

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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laserbrainz
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November 28, 2013 - 11:29 am
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That is interesting, RU. I feel bad for those choirs when the pitch keeps rising.

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Fiddlerman
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November 29, 2013 - 2:35 pm
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Those 2 hz are not as audible as you guys may think.

Listen to both A's and let me know if you think it's that big a deal?

A = 440

A = 442

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Ferret
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Fiddlerman said
Those 2 hz are not as audible as you guys may think.

Listen to both A's and let me know if you think it's that big a deal?

A = 440

A = 442

@Fiddlerman 

Pierre, you're totally right. I'm not sure that I can hear 'any' difference.

 

It wasn't that I was really worried about it. It was just found that the variations where rather interesting. I like to keep learning. :)

Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of dunno ..... What was I saying???? facepalm

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Fiddlestix
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November 29, 2013 - 7:05 pm
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It's hard for me to hear much difference since I have a bit of trouble with the A pitch anyway, but I could hear a tiny bit.

So if you tune to 442 hz then you tune the other three strings up 2 hz also ? 

 

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RosinedUp
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Fiddlestix said
So if you tune to 442 hz then you tune the other three strings up 2 hz also ? 

Without going into too much detail, no, it's not as simple as that.

Often or usually, an electronic tuner has a reference setting so that you can set the value of A anywhere from say 420 to 460.  When you change that setting, it adjusts all the other notes to be consistent with the A that you choose.

One could calculate for A=442 the exact corresponding Hz for G, D, and E, but I don't believe that would help most people, as electronic tuners don't usually report the frequency in Hz.  You could generate the exact G, D, and E pitches in Audacity and tune against them by ear though.

Clearly none of the above approaches were used traditionally in orchestras though ... so you can suppose there is some other solution ...

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Fiddlerman
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November 29, 2013 - 9:14 pm
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I didn't realize that it wasn't so (2 hz each) but I suppose it should be fairly close in any case. When I tune the other notes I play them together and tune until I hear a perfect fifth. After tuning all the notes I keep going back to the other two fifths (3 in total) till all three are perfect. You can really hear the difference when the fifths are perfect.
But like RU said, your tuner will adjust automatically for the A that you set it at.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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RosinedUp
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People can play their whole lives without knowing the following, so those who aren't interested can move on to the next post. But IMO, understanding it can explain a few things.

There are two common ways of tuning.  Most people here probably use equal temperament, since they probably tune each string against an electronic tuner.  Playing pairs of adjacent open strings and listening for beats goes along with just intonation.  I've computed the precise pitches for each tuning system for both A=440 and A=442.

A=440, just intonation: G=195.56, D=293.33, A=440, E=660

A=442 just intonation:  G=196.44, D=294.67, A=442, E=663

A=440, equal temperament: G=196.00, D=293.66, A=440, E=659.26

A=442, equal temperament: G=196.89, D=295.00, A=442, E=662.25

Notice that open E under equal temperament and A=440 is 3.74 Hz lower than open E under just temperament and A=442.  It happens that that is a difference of nearly ten cents, audible to most people, as I understand it.

The just fifth is a little bigger than the equally-tempered fifth.  Thinking in cents, the just fifth is very close to 702 cents, whereas the equally-tempered fifth is exactly 700 cents.  Tuning by fifths implies the G string will be four cents flat, the D string two cents flat, and the E string two cents sharp, compared to equally-tempered tuning.

Those are some of the bare facts about tuning.  What it implies about playing with others, I'm not sure.  One thing the knowledge could prevent, though: someone tuning by fifths, carefully counting beats, and then supposing there was something wrong with their tuner and every tuner because the tuners reported that their G string was four cents flat.

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Fiddlestix
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I don't know that the human ear is that precise as to be able to hear one or two cent's difference in pitch. Playing FM's 440 and 442 hz freq's again, I don't think I really can hear the difference.

RosinedUp mentioned tuner's that don't usually indicate in hz, but I use one from time to time that does.

I primarily use the following tuner: http://www.get-tuned.com/onlin....._tuner.php

The next link is by the same source which will display in hz as well as the note being played, but it will give a warning when it open's. There is an explanation regarding the danger. 

NOTE: I have used it many time's and it is perfectly safe, but have always reverted back to the first tuner posted because of the sensitivity of the hz freq's. In using the second tuner the room needs to be absolutely quiet (free from ambient noises) for it to work exact, but it does work and work well. Just that my ear isn't that precise to use it.

Don't be afraid to open it, it's perfectly safe, even with the warning:http://www.get-tuned.com/onlin....._tuner.php

 

Ken.

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DanielB
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Fiddlerman said
Those 2 hz are not as audible as you guys may think.

Listen to both A's and let me know if you think it's that big a deal?

A = 440

A = 442

 

Okay, understand please that this question isn't necessarily an argument against 442..

But if it isn't that noticeable, why do we tune up that 2 extra Hz?  What does it do that makes it worth putting up a tuning note for the projects, when I would guess that most electronic tuners and online tuners default at 440?

Obviously, if it makes it sound much better or something, it only makes sense.  But How does it do that, if the difference is smaller than most people can hear?

dunno

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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CameronLG
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November 30, 2013 - 9:32 am
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@DanielB   

 

Play both of those recordings at the exact same time. That is why :)

 

 

When 2 Sine waves of different pitches overlap they create a single Mean Wave. A Mean Wave is one that focuses on the mean((or average)) of the two waves, in this case a 441Hz This is done through Constructive Interference, when you can actually hear it, and Destructive interference, when the wave seemingly disappears. 

 

Now imagine you are playing in an orchestra, and right at the start you do the whole fancy tuning A thing, and all of sudden you start hearing the weird A phenomena when the violins start tuning... that would just be weird xD

Stop saying you can't do it and actually go try it... Trust me it works.

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RosinedUp
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Cameron, I think Daniel was asking why we don't just all tune to 440, instead of everyone tuning to 442.  I know he is about as aware of beat phenomena as anyone here.  I don't think he is saying that some could stay at 440 while others are at 442.

Above when I compare different open E's and find a difference of ten cents, I'm implying that we all should agree in our tuning, and that is along the same lines as your post, if I am understanding you

OTOH, with a lot of people playing a piece together, it won't be quite like two people playing a tuning note at slightly different frequencies.

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Fiddlerman
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November 30, 2013 - 1:00 pm
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I know this sounds weird but I like the 442 and 443 A more than 440. I played in European orchestras full time for 20 years and don't even use a tuner. I feel the note and it's just that much nicer for me.

The reason for giving a tuning note at the beginning is for all those who don't have a tuner. The best way to guarantee that we will match is to tune to the same A. Whenever I play in an orchestra or any form of chamber music, we always give an A and match our notes before playing. I'll let you know which pitch I use as well for those of you who prefer to use a tuner. :)

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but the one who needs the least."

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