FORUM

Please have a look at our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Positions and Stops... Which is the Better Approach ?
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
Avatar
Crazymotive
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 8:38 am
Member Since: January 18, 2012
Forum Posts: 342
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Quite naturally as one progresses on the violin one wants to learn and perfect advanced techniques, such as vibrato, different finger positions such as 3rd, 2nd, 4th, .etc. and, another useful advanced technique, the double stop.

 

I am at the stage where I want to learn to play and gain perfection with double stops. However, i can see I have a ways to go.  For one getting used to proper left hand positions of the elbows and wrists in order to easily get the fingers in the correct position as accurately and painlessly as possible.

 

Question i have is that prior to trying to gain perfect form with playing double stops would it be best to first gain perfection with the different finger positions, i.e. 2nd, 3rd, etc and then proceed to double stops once I am comfortable playing and shifting between the different positions.  Or, can the two techniques be learned together ?

 

I guess what I am trying to say is, is there a specific and formal order to which one should learn and progress through the advanced techniques ? Is there any one recommended approach ?  Or is it different for everyone ?

 

Any advice or insights are  appreciated as I want to get some of the more advanced stuff down.

Avatar
NoirVelours
Quebec
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 9:15 am
Member Since: March 28, 2012
Forum Posts: 822
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I am interested in the answer to this question also. In the beginners's tutorials we see trills, are they the first technique usually teached to a beginner? Or is it vibrato, doubles stops, slurs, slides dunno.

"It can sing like a bird, it can cry like a human being, it can be very angry, it can be all that humans are" Maxim Vengerov

Avatar
TerryT
Coleshill, Warwickshire
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 9:18 am
Member Since: December 15, 2011
Forum Posts: 1698
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

After 20 odd formal leasons my teacher is now progressing me onto 3 rd position. (mentioning that sliding/shifting is a pre-requisite to learning Vibrato).
Other than that no mention has been made yet, of learning vibrato or indeed double stops, and as I trust her teaching methods without question, I know she will teach when good and ready.

Having said that, she has never dissuaded me from trying anything that I feel like trying so I do dabble in double stops, and sit for hours in front of the TV trying to squash Naska's bug!!

But in the back of my mind I know she will teach me in the least painful way and in a way as to discourage bad habits forming.

However, if you are teaching yourelf using FM's fab web-site and have no access to another 'live' teacher, then just go for it when you feel good and ready. They're your fingers and fiddle so who's right to say any other way is wrong.

I was born with nothing,
and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

Avatar
Crazymotive
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 9:34 am
Member Since: January 18, 2012
Forum Posts: 342
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

As a child I began learning with a teacher. I've played the violin on and off since I was a child but never advanced much beyond basic first finger position and relatively simple pieces.  In the recent year(s)  I have been studying the violin on my own (and using Fiddlerman's resources) and I have advanced considerably. I can play more complex pieces, ,my bowing technique is much improved (I no longer constantly hit the wrong strings) , I can play a little in 2nd and 3rd position, and I can do some vibrato. I have even bought myself a new violin.

 

So, so far good, by dabbling around and experimenting I have actually advanced myself considerably. But I still feel there is no substitute for a good teacher.  If I plan to master the instrument to a good degree I feel a good teacher is mandatory. I plan to join an amateur orchestra over the next few weeks. Hopefully some people there might recommend a good teacher in my general area which encompasses NYC.

 

Meanwhile I keep learning and improving myself thanks to Fiddlerman and other online learning resources. I am indebted to this site for helping me improve a great deal. My family keeps telling me I am sounding better and better.  That is at least encouraging. crossedfingers

Avatar
myguitarnow
Laguna Beach
Pro advisor
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 9:44 am
Member Since: June 15, 2011
Forum Posts: 1094
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

A great way to practice double stops is use you bow on all 4 open strings and use your bow in a slide motion as in practice your down bow all in one direction then use the up bow direction on all 4 strings. You can really feel where your arm position needs to be that way. start slow than do it faster making sure you just bow one string at a time. Once you can do that then try with two open notes at a time and you'll get it. You really have to relax your bowing arm and you will get it.

Avatar
ftufc
SoCal
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 9:56 am
Member Since: February 24, 2012
Forum Posts: 727
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My experience is very similar to Terry's; I have a spectacular teacher (I've had 19 lessons so far), but my teacher has recommended just the opposite; he started me on double-stops about 3 wks ago and haven't done more than "talk about" various "positions" from a strategic sense.  His perspective is, there's sooooo much music one can play in first position that, because I have an interest in fiddle techniques, I will be able to significantly enhance my sound in first position by using double-stops.

At his recommendation, I bought a technique book called "Melodious Double Stops" by Josephine Trott,,, I love the book and hate it at the same time.  It's an incredible book.  Because I have particularly large fingers, double-stops (actually all violin fingering) are VERY challenging, but I've come miles in the past three weeks.  I can now incorporate double-stops in a lot of the songs I play.

But I totally agree with what everyone else has said, your fingers, your violin, you should practice what you want to practice because it all builds your proficiency.  Good luck!

Avatar
TerryT
Coleshill, Warwickshire
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 10:42 am
Member Since: December 15, 2011
Forum Posts: 1698
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

myguitarnow said

A great way to practice double stops is use you bow on all 4 open strings and use your bow in a slide motion as in practice your down bow all in one direction then use the up bow direction on all 4 strings. You can really feel where your arm position needs to be that way. start slow than do it faster making sure you just bow one string at a time. Once you can do that then try with two open notes at a time and you'll get it. You really have to relax your bowing arm and you will get it.

MGN !
That gives you 1000 posts!
Great contribution the the cause!! birthday-cake

I was born with nothing,
and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

Avatar
TerryT
Coleshill, Warwickshire
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 11:37 am
Member Since: December 15, 2011
Forum Posts: 1698
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ftufc said

........., because I have an interest in fiddle techniques

Same reasoning, 180degree opposite!
At first my desire was to play fiddle but now I find I'm hooked on classics. ( but am still intrigued by double stops my fat fingered friend, lol)

Maybe I need more fiddle players and jamming sessions round here. I might suggest it to my local country pub

I was born with nothing,
and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

Avatar
TerryT
Coleshill, Warwickshire
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 11:40 am
Member Since: December 15, 2011
Forum Posts: 1698
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Oops sorry CrazyM, I detect a little thread-hijack ocurring
facepalm

I was born with nothing,
and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 12:22 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think double stops were born out of poor string crossings.  I often play double stops even when I don't want to.  drooling

However, isn't the bottom line really to do with the kind of music one wishes to play?

(eventually)

When I used to be strictly classical I found a lot of music without double stops at all. (Trios, Duets).   Also, I think Celtic is pretty much double stop free (?)

coffee2

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
TerryT
Coleshill, Warwickshire
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 12:45 pm
Member Since: December 15, 2011
Forum Posts: 1698
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Celtic is stop free! That's interesting Oliver, as that would be my choice of fiddlemusic. Maybe that's why my teacher suggested position changes. What about Folk music?

I was born with nothing,
and to my surprise I still have most of it left!

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 1:41 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think that folk music depends a lot on the country of origin. 

My location, not too far from the Appalachian Mountains, is full of double stop music.

I can often hear Celtic/Scottish influence in American fiddle but maybe without double stop emphasis.

violin-studentviolin-student

Position changes are not just for exhibition purposes.  Position changes can simplify a passage that might require clumsy string changes, this, in addition to reaching higher ("pinkyless") notes. 

coffee2

There are probably double stops in all genres if you know where to look (and want to!)

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Worldfiddler
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 3:34 pm
Member Since: April 22, 2012
Forum Posts: 436
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I have a little tutorial on getting double stops in tune here ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....Lso8t50-h4

Mr Jim

Avatar
Mad_Wed
Russia, Tatarstan rep. Kazan city
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 3:35 pm
Member Since: October 7, 2011
Forum Posts: 2849
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

My teacher started to teach me different positions first. Doublestops, which i've asked her about, are not even near to be learned.fish

Though i guess, it's the matter of person's abilities and preferences.drooling See - my teacher consider that i'm not ready yet and i don't argue (she sees definitelly more), Terry's teacher thinks another way about Terry - so if You think that You'd like to do it - so do it!

I don't see any reason not to learn those techniques at the same time. Though doublestops are really picky about the intonation - i'd suggest to learn it if You are comfortable with the one string intonation.

dancing

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
May 24, 2012 - 3:49 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 11694
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I honestly don't know if you need to learn positions before double stops. There are tons of violinists that play using double stops and never leave first position so I'll have to say that there is no reason to wait for positions before experimenting and learning to play double stops.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Soguns Black Violin
Oslo - Norway
Member
Members
May 24, 2012 - 4:42 pm
Member Since: May 16, 2012
Forum Posts: 43
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Since we're all here with double stop... let's try to do this :))

 

1. Just need left hand, right hand is no need

2. Keep your left hand in 3rd position ( or near it, we won't play so It doesn't matter )

3. Press a double stop for the 6th ( E on A-string and C on E-string )

4. Push your violin up about 40 - 60 degree ( Still holding that 6th )

5. Now raise your 1st finger and 4 finger straight up ( Still keeping all the step )

6. Hard vibrato now ( Still keeping all the step )

7. Look at the mirror

 

Tell me the result then thumbs-upthumbs-upthumbs-upthumbs-up

Violin - My Life - My Style - My love

Avatar
Soguns Black Violin
Oslo - Norway
Member
Members
May 24, 2012 - 5:03 pm
Member Since: May 16, 2012
Forum Posts: 43
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

After you did what's up there, so there's few thing that can make shift and double stop easier

 

1. For Shifting, try hold your violin up like 5 - 20 degree depend, imagine that when you shift is the same when you walking on the moutain.... walki downhilll is always easier than up hilll right? Same as Shifting

 

2. About double stop, just a few thing that ca take a look at

- the 3rd always easy to play fast, but take sometime to check intonational

- the 6th is easy when play slow, just need to know when 2 fingers near each other, or far from each other :)) ( to make a six minor or six major ), but watch out, it'll become really difficult when play it fast

- about octave, just really get in tune the base note, and you can check the upper note base on the bass note . 

- The 10th is badass roflol it's difficult in everyway, will hurt your hand when start to practice because you must stretch it as much as you can to make the 10th. So hint for this I already posted on my Tips "Down" that you can find in forum, "Always stretch down, not stretch up"

 

===> And a general hint to play double stop are

- Try to relax your hand, ofc you scare of double stop, you'll automaticly become firm in your hand, and that's not good, especially when play double stop because you'll get tired really quick

- Suggest to practice seperate before play 2 notes together, you press 2 strings, but play in 1 string. Do it with all the notes and you'll be fine :))

 

Hope it help crossedfingers

Violin - My Life - My Style - My love

Avatar
eoj02
mooresvill, in
Regular advisor
Members

Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 6:20 pm
Member Since: February 26, 2012
Forum Posts: 167
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

i started trying double stops the first week.  I however am completely different than anyone i've seen in this post.  I have had no lessons.  I've dabbled with the FM method of positioning, but with my impatience, i just kind of move to a feel. 

i know i probably won't improve as fast as someone with lessons, but i have a blast finding new techniques.  i don't even know what they are all called, but whatever.  I call them bluegrass shuffle, slide pulls, hammers and such. 

i've moved from using the lessons on here to just working on songs.  i find notes and work with chording as much as i can (a little music theory is scary). 

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
May 24, 2012 - 7:00 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

This calls for a video banana

 

I too have been teacherless which is my general redeeming excuse for the way I play.

rofl

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Crazymotive
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 27, 2012 - 4:54 am
Member Since: January 18, 2012
Forum Posts: 342
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Oliver said
I think double stops were born out of poor string crossings.  I often play double stops even when I don't want to.  drooling

coffee2

The old violin joke.  When you want to play one string at a time you end up playing "double stops". When you want to play double stops you end up playing one string.hats_off

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 231

Currently Online:
43 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today Ginnysg
Upcoming HeadCheese, lakelivr, harvestman, fiddlinmama

Top Posters:

coolpinkone: 3755

Mad_Wed: 2849

Barry: 2661

Fiddlestix: 2637

Oliver: 2439

DanielB: 2379

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1

Members: 3552

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 16

Forums: 56

Topics: 6439

Posts: 80299

Newest Members:

dbsimon, stirlingite771, mdedmon, coreshanethi, wisco kid, Yael

Administrators: Fiddlerman: 11694, KindaScratchy: 1650