FORUM

Please have a look at our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Scales According to FM Site
How are scales described ?
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
May 1, 2014 - 1:51 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The FM tutorials contain a topic called "Dorian" scales.
However, the examples given start with the description "D minor dorian" over a few bars of music in the key of C (?) What is the D to C connection?

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
BillyG
Far North-west Scotland
Members

Regulars
May 1, 2014 - 2:07 pm
Member Since: March 22, 2014
Forum Posts: 1635
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've been introducing myself to these scales as well - and I see what you're saying - here's and extract from a wiki page - I'll give the link below - that may help clarify (or even confuse you more ! )

Modern Dorian mode
The modern Dorian mode (also called Russian minor by Balakirev[9]), by contrast, is a strictly diatonic scale corresponding to the white keys of the piano from "D" to "D", or any transposition of its interval pattern, which has the ascending pattern of:
Whole Step - Half Step - Whole Step - Whole Step - Whole Step - Half Step - Whole Step
or more simply:
w-h-w-w-w-h-w.
It can also be thought of as:
Tone - Semitone - Tone - Tone - Tone - Semitone - Tone
T-S-T-T-T-S-T.
or simply as a scale with a minor 3rd and 7th, a major 2nd and 6th, and a perfect 4th and 5th.
It may be considered an "excerpt" of a major scale played from the pitch a whole tone above the major scale's tonic (in the key of C Major it would be D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D), i.e., a major scale played from its second scale degree up to its second degree again. The resulting scale is, however, minor in quality, because, as the "D" becomes the new tonal centre, the F a minor third above the D becomes the new mediant—third degree. If we build a chord on the tonic, third and fifth, it is a minor chord.
Examples of the Dorian mode include:
The D Dorian mode, which contains all notes the same as the C major scale starting on D.
• The G Dorian mode, which contains all notes the same as the F major scale starting on G.
• The A♭ Dorian mode, which contains all notes the same as the G♭ major scale starting on A♭.

- full page link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_mode

Bill

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes.  

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

Avatar
Uzi
Georgia
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 1, 2014 - 3:02 pm
Member Since: January 19, 2014
Forum Posts: 890
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

D Dorian simply means to play the notes from the C scale starting and ending on the D note. It is referred to as minor, because a Dorian scale has a minor "feel" to it when you hear it. All Dorian scales start and end on the 2nd note of a scale and go to the 2nd an octave higher. Thus, an E Dorian scale starts and ends on E using the notes from the D scale, since E is the 2nd note of the D scale.

Such scales are called modes. Using the C scale as an example, (remember that each mode uses the notes from the C scale) here are the modes:

Ionian = (1st) (C Major Scale) Starts and ends on C
Dorian = (2nd) Starts and ends on the 2nd note of the scale: D
Phrygian = (3rd) Starts and ends on E
Lydian = (4th) Starts and ends on F
Mixolydian = (5th) Starts and ends on G
Aolian = (6th) (Natural Minor) Starts and ends on A
Locrian = (7th) Starts and ends on B

An Ionian scale IS the major scale and the Lydian and Mixolydian are closely related and are normally played with major chord progressions. Notice that we have the 1st, the 4th and the 5th for major sounding scales.

The Aolian is the natural minor scale and the Dorian and Phrygian are related and sound best played against minor chord progressions. Notice that the minor sounding scales are the 2nd, 3rd and 6th notes of the scale.

Playing a "modal" chord progression on a guitar or piano for the C scale one would play C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am and normally a Bdim (diminished).

The Locrian mode starting on the 7th note of a scale is, I believe, rarely used.

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
May 1, 2014 - 3:23 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 11694

Thanks Bill. You saved me the explanation :)

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
May 1, 2014 - 3:47 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The replies have been helpful but I wonder about the purpose of special scales. "Scale" for me defines, in effect, the notes available to a musician to play(?) Does/did some composer ever write a composition in D minor for instance?

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Uzi
Georgia
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 1, 2014 - 4:32 pm
Member Since: January 19, 2014
Forum Posts: 890
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Oliver said

The replies have been helpful but I wonder about the purpose of special scales. "Scale" for me defines, in effect, the notes available to a musician to play(?) Does/did some composer ever write a composition in D minor for instance?

Absolutely, they are almost as common as pieces in major scales: Bach's Concerto in D minor being one example. If you are talking about D Dorian mode songs, again there are plenty, but think of Eleanor Rigby by the Beatles, or Scarborough Fair by Simon and Garfunkel as examples of how of the Dorian mode sounds.

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
May 1, 2014 - 5:59 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 11694

Exactly. Music consists of scales and familiarizing yourself with those patterns will aide you in playing them more fluently and effortlessly. :)

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
May 1, 2014 - 10:07 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I am in no way questioning tlhe value of the scale exercises but I am curious about the explanations.
Uzi mentioned ( I think) the Bach Double in D minor which I find is in the key of F (?) That is confusing. How do I arrive at F from D minor ?

viewer.pngImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Uzi
Georgia
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 2, 2014 - 12:17 am
Member Since: January 19, 2014
Forum Posts: 890
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Funny you should ask that, I was just thinking about coming back and explaining that. Above, I said that the Aolian (VI) mode is the same thing as the natural minor and uses the same notes (same key signature) as the major key it's associated with. You'll notice that, in your example, that both the key of F major (the Ionian mode) and D minor have a single flat note: the b-flat. The natural minor (Aolian) shares all of the same notes as the key of F major, but goes from the 6th to the 6th, rather than from the 1st to the 1st. So, F(1st), G(2nd), A(3rd), B-flat(4th), C(5th), D(6th). Thus, the Aolian mode (or natural minor) for the key of F is Dm. G(2nd) would be the Dorian mode for the key of F major and we would say G Dorian and it too has the same key signature (same notes) as F major. For the natural minors one just says D minor, rather than D Aolian although they are the same thing.

Similarly, we can find the natural minor of any Key, by counting up 6 notes from the root note (or tonic) of the associated major scale. C is Am, D is Bm, etc. Or conversely, we can find the associated major scale by counting back 6 from any natural minor scale. Am -> C (although in practice I do it by counting forward 3 rather than back 6 -- because it's all circular A, B, C...G,A,B,C).

Despite the fact that they share the same notes, they sound very different. Just about every blues tune you've ever heard is in a minor scale. The reason that they sound different is due to the location of the half steps. Below, I'll use W to designate a whole step and H to designate a half step. The major scale, can be thought of as two tetrachords joined by a whole step interval. A tetrachord for a major scale is a four note sequence as follows: 1W2W3H4. Now, if we take two tetrachords and join them by a whole step we end up with a major scale which is (stepwise):
W-W-H (W) W-W-H. If we were to start on the 6th instead, then the sequence, using the same notes would be, W-H-W (W) H-W-W. That difference makes the scale have a much different color, or feel.

Clear as mud?

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright

Avatar
RosinedUp
Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 2, 2014 - 2:08 am
Member Since: September 7, 2012
Forum Posts: 985
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Oliver said

The replies have been helpful but I wonder about the purpose of special scales. "Scale" for me defines, in effect, the notes available to a musician to play(?) Does/did some composer ever write a composition in D minor for instance?

Assuming the usual musical notation system, the notes available are specified by the key signature. Unless there are accidentals (read: exceptions to the key signature), there are at most seven pitch classes in the piece. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_class I believe you understand that.

The scale determines the key signature, and so it determines the notes available.

But the notes available do not completely determine the scale. The mode or scale of a composition is not completely defined by the key signature.

That is where the tonic comes in. For a composition, the tonic is the pitch class where the piece comes to rest---where the listener has a sense of resolution or conclusion, and it's usually in the last note of the melody of the piece. For a scale, the tonic is the first and last note.

A melody is a jumbled-up scale.

The concepts of mode and scale don't make sense without a concept of tonic.

Avatar
Oliver
NC
King
Regulars
May 2, 2014 - 7:25 am
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have a new respect for scales, etc. http://fiddlerman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
Very interesting.

Uzi Ditto on your last post. Light at the end of the tunnel !

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
MrYikes
Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 2, 2014 - 8:15 am
Member Since: February 11, 2014
Forum Posts: 366
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

A melody is a jumbled-up scale.

LOL, yep that's what my scales sound like, so I'll change my thinking to "I'm working on a new melody" and I'll be off the hook to having it played well.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 231

Currently Online:
49 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming HeadCheese, Ginnysg, lakelivr, harvestman, fiddlinmama

Top Posters:

coolpinkone: 3754

Mad_Wed: 2849

Barry: 2661

Fiddlestix: 2637

Oliver: 2439

DanielB: 2379

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1

Members: 3549

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 16

Forums: 56

Topics: 6439

Posts: 80294

Newest Members:

coreshanethi, wisco kid, Yael, tobypaul, Yogesh Thakur, Eudora

Administrators: Fiddlerman: 11694, KindaScratchy: 1650