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Tone Production video
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Composer
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March 13, 2012 - 1:28 am
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Experimentation.  Yes, but to do experiments one needs instruments to measure variables, in this case pressure, velocity, and soundpoint.  For example, during a full bow stroke, various phase changes occur whereby different parts of the arm that dominate the stroke change over to the other(upper arm, or forearm).   Here a sudden significant pressure change could occur due to a flaw in mechanics and how would I even detect an abrupt pressure change nevermind resolve its cause?  Even worse is the more subtle problem of an uneven adjustment of pressure during the full stroke.  The Violin requires precise control and I don't have the necessary sensitivity to discriminate the feedback.  Velocity is a similar problem in that I am getting from point A to B in the correct time, but my velocity is not held constant.  Soundpoint may seem easy but try keeping the hair on a single winding of the string.  Its not easy. 

 

The other beef I have with the violin is it seems to require the learning of advanced topics to learn the beginner stuff.  For example, my right hand fingers are like steel rods.  No flexibility.  I need to learn an advanced bow stroke, colle, to develop the 'springs' that are necessary to finely adjust the pressure during the full simple detache bow stroke. 

So I remain confused as always.

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cdennyb
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March 13, 2012 - 1:46 am
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have you ever thought of not analyzing how it works and just closing your eyes and playing notes that sound good to your ears?

You'd be surprised how well your ears will guide the pressure of the bow, the length of stroke, the note change at your fingertips and the tone produced with a well rosined bow, and how well your fingers and muscles of your arms and back and body in general will respond to those commands. 

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Composer
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March 13, 2012 - 5:15 am
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If you allow your ear to guide your right hand, you could end up with a complex mix of pressure, speed, and soundpoint alterations (which is hard to replicate) in one stroke to achieve a particular tone color/dynamic.  What I want is to control two variables (for example pressure and soundpoint) and then alter the other (speed) to determine its effect (experiment).

The problem is I don't have a pressure meter and a velocity meter in addition to my Korg Electronic Tuner to measure pitch as a beginners way of detecting and then correcting gross error. In order to maintain constant pressure, you have to continuously adjust pressure as the bow moves through its stroke.  Its hard to even detect pressure change without springs in the fingers and then you have to be concerned without changing speed too.

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Fiddlestix
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March 13, 2012 - 6:29 am
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Mr Composer...... My only suggestion to you ?

Begin Trumpet lessons

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Samuel L Boogie
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March 13, 2012 - 10:43 am
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Fiddlestix said
Mr Composer...... My only suggestion to you ?

Begin Trumpet lessons

roflol

The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!

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BakaKitty
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March 13, 2012 - 11:30 am
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You'll probably need something like (below) to keep a uniform pressure, velocity etc etc across all parts of your body while playing the violin. Just input the data into the computer, and the suit will handle the rest.

 

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sdsalyer
Abingdon, VA
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March 13, 2012 - 11:44 am
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I appreciate the scientific approach, Composer.  I'm sure you could analyze it the way you propose, but as the others have mentioned, I don't think it will do much good since it's more of a "feeling" then something exactly replicated -- it needs that small degree of imperfection in pressures and between each movement to sound "human" and evoke emotion.  

Can you imagine a robot programmed to play the violin with exact tolerances, pressures, and movements?  It would be precise and technically perfect, but it would also be cold and unfeeling, and with violin, I think feeling is first.

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Mad_Wed
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March 13, 2012 - 12:05 pm
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Composer said
...

The problem is I don't have a pressure meter and a velocity meter in addition to my Korg Electronic Tuner to measure pitch as a beginners way of detecting and then correcting gross error. In order to maintain constant pressure, you have to continuously adjust pressure as the bow moves through its stroke.  Its hard to even detect pressure change without springs in the fingers and then you have to be concerned without changing speed too.

Composer, you are falling in details too much.. Imagine that You should explain how to walk properly to a 9 month child.. Will the kid understand your theory of proper muscle control and all the balance stuff? Nope. This is matter of practice. Try to feel the music and follow it. It's not easy, i know, and there'll be lots of mistakes - it's ok, because that is how we learn! 

Separate your goals of the practice session. Work on dynamics and tone production, intonation and fingering separately.... 

For example, my right hand fingers are like steel rods.  No flexibility.  I need to learn an advanced bow stroke, colle, to develop the 'springs' that are necessary to finely adjust the pressure during the full simple detache bow stroke.

When i started to learn almost a year ago i had the same problem. As my teacher said i had a wooden right hand.. I didn't learn adwanced bow strokes or colle - i just played full size bow strokes, and with top half/low half of bow, speeding up and slowing down at the beginning of every practice. Now my right hand feels much better...

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Oliver
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March 13, 2012 - 12:21 pm
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Here's how to do it.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Mad_Wed
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March 13, 2012 - 12:56 pm
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HoHowwww!

I want this wheel chair- robot ! I could became fat and beautiful, by using it everyday!

thumbs-upexactly

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Fiddlestix
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March 13, 2012 - 1:20 pm
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Oliver, that is awesome. I want one of those.

Do they come in female gender, too?violin_girl

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Gail
29 Palms, CA
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March 13, 2012 - 3:19 pm
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I wonder how many scientific instruments and how much experimentation this beautiful 6 year old girl did in order to play like this:

 

I've learned so much from my mistakes that I've decided to make some more.

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cdennyb
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March 13, 2012 - 5:22 pm
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I think you're wrong about her age... isn't that a 77 yr old munchkin?

or... maybe a reincarnation of a past virtuoso... yea, that's it... from 1756 I believe.

 

LOL 

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Gail
29 Palms, CA
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March 13, 2012 - 9:13 pm
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I am wrong.  She's now 9 years old.  She started playing because her Mom took her to lots of concerts and the music touched her heart.  She's quite the little scientist!

cool

I've learned so much from my mistakes that I've decided to make some more.

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Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
March 14, 2012 - 9:13 am
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It's funny that I just read what Composer said about analyzing and I made a post just before saying kind of the same thing.
You are right in your thinking. The thing is that this kind of analysis happens automatically for some people. You play, you practice and feel that the sound is worse because you pressed too hard or played closer to the bridge and got a scratchy sound or a better stronger sound, played with more or faster bow....... It's the same thing with sports, some kids are naturally good at finding the technique that will allow them to throw the ball as far as is possible for them to while others need to be shown that technique.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Fiddlestix
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March 14, 2012 - 11:22 am
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The video of the little girl playing just goes to show how easy it can be to play violin, she's doing it with her eyes closed.

Pretty simple, huh?violin_girl

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Oliver
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March 14, 2012 - 3:37 pm
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I sometimes play with my eyes closed.  Does not seem to make a difference drooling

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Composer
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March 14, 2012 - 6:49 pm
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Pierre, Why not use instruments to measure pressure and sound level?

1. Bow across a Postal balance for pressure

2. Sound level meter to determine correct dynamic

I put markers on the side of my bow and use the metronome to make sure speed is constant.

Think of the unique additions to fiddlership.com

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myguitarnow
Laguna Beach
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March 14, 2012 - 8:31 pm
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Mmm Composer? Why not use an electrical engineer to help solve your problems?

Mad Wed said it perfectly in her above post, "Composer, you are falling in details too much.. Imagine that You should explain how to walk properly to a 9 month child.. Will the kid understand your theory of proper muscle control and all the balance stuff? Nope. This is matter of practice. Try to feel the music and follow it. It's not easy, i know, and there'll be lots of mistakes – it's ok, because that is how we learn! " jimi-hendrix

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dionysia
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March 14, 2012 - 10:44 pm
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Composer said
Think of the unique additions to fiddlership.com

Oh my gosh - I just had this marvelous vision of a fiddle-powered spaceship [a la Close Encounters of the Third Kind] sailing away with all of the Fiddlerman members playing He's a Pirate. It was an awesome mental  moment.coffee1

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