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Teaching a friend
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DanielB
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October 16, 2012 - 6:21 am
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I'm not asking how to do it, I just figured I'd post about how I am going about it.  Maybe if someone else here ends up teaching a buddy how to play, they can get some ideas from how I am going about it.  No problems with comments on it, so long as you understand it isn't likely to actually change the strategy I thought out and worked out with the friend for teaching him.  I thought about just not talking about it, since some points of it are pretty sure to be controversial with some folks here.  But some of the ideas might be useful to someone else, so oh well.

First thing I did was give him an instrument.  "Punkin", my trusty old Mendini MV300.  I didn't want an instrument that I had put that much work and playing into to just collect dust much of the time after I got a new violin.  He had always admired it ever since I stripped the paint off the fingerboard and left if blonde and he liked the sound.  He'd also gone on for years about someday wanting to get a violin/fiddle and learn to play, but every time he had budgeted for one and decided what to get, something came up and it had to go back onto the back burner. 

Next thing we did was sit down on youtube and find some playing he really liked.  Not so much pieces or songs as style and the individual sounds/techniques.  His tastes ended up slanting heavily towards more of a fiddling sound.  Good news, since Punkin really likes that sort of thing.

Then I had to take a day or so to think out a strategy/program for teaching him, with some goals and methods we could talk over and negotiate as necessary.  Yeah, I could have just dived in on theory and form and standard basic pieces or got a book.  But he's an old friend of the family, and I know at least some of his talents and mental blocks.  I have enticed him into playing a bit on other instruments before, and so I have some idea how to go about that.

Next step, I spent about 5 minutes showing him some basics of how to read fiddle tab, so I could scribble out things for him to practice quickly and so a little later, he'll be able to jot down ideas.  He is certainly capable of learning to read standard notation, but it would have been a stumbling block for him that will come down easy enough later, if he decides he wants standard notation.

He had already been messing a bit with "Twinkle Twinkle", but.. Everybody does that one, and it just isn't much on "bragging rights".  So his first piece is "Whiskey In the Jar", one of his all-time favorite songs.  A very recognizable version if it doesn't have to be much harder than Twinkle, and it has more potential for some "Yeah baby!" moments as one gets it down.  I've always felt is is better to start on pieces that you can comfortably still be playing and developing years down the road than pieces that one will discard as "beginner stuff".

A few days with that (and working out some bits and sounds on his own) and his intonation was giving him some annoyance.  So we put on some tape.  Yeah, yeah, "even a small child should be able to.." blahblahblah.. Fact is he isn't a small child and small children have some advantages on things like learning with no navigational indicators and feeling good about it.  So tapes.  But they were thin strips of blue painter's masking tape, since I didn't figure he'd need or want them for long.

For the first couple days, he thought they were a great idea.  Then they became an annoyance that he didn't like seeing on the wood of the fingerboard.  Before the end of the first week, they were gone or in tatters and I told him just to go ahead and take them off.  Didn't need them anymore, and they had already served their purpose, since he now had a good enough idea of where the fingers go down and the sound/feel of that.  He has a pretty good ear, we just needed to get him close enough to be able to use it those first few days.

Next, hearing some of the things he was trying to do, we went for an alternative tuning.  GDGD.  A number of reasons for that.  He had already been tinkering with trying drones and double-stops a little and it is very convenient to have that 4th interval right there in the middle for some of the sounds he was trying to get.  Also he was trying to jump between octaves with the melody, and if you learn a song/scale on one of the 5th tuned set of strings, you already know it on the other set.  If he wants to tackle standard tuning later, it will be easy enough with what he learns with the GDGD.  

So he's working on his current practice piece, "Whiskey in the Jar" and working out some bits and sounds from some old Charlie Daniels songs he knows and I don't happen to.  His mom can recognize them and tell what he's trying to play within a couple seconds, so I'd guess he's doing ok with that, but that's beyond/outside what I am showing him.

The "program" was designed to get him playing stuff he can have fun playing as fast as possible.  I tend to feel that no matter how one goes about learning, that is important.  If you can get someone to where they are having some fun, then their natural fire/enthusiasm will drive them the rest of the way to wherever they want to go.  I have known more than a few guitar players who, after being shown how to play the opening to "smoke on the water" on the two middle strings of a guitar, went on to get good and play for years.  And I have also known too many where the guitar and the lesson book sat and collected dust because they just never caught the fire and got to where they were enjoying playing. 

Not saying the steps I have used would be the best for everyone.  But in this case I know the person's talents, what tends to trip him up when learning stuff, and what can get him enthusiastic with music. 

So how's it going?  Well, at about 2 weeks, I'd say he's playing pretty well.  He's playing a lot, and enjoys it, and he's mostly through the "sore fingers" stage.  Even when it doesn't come out quite how he wanted, it still sounds like music. 

Which is really good, since I figure we're about halfway through "lessons".  I've shown him about half of what I figure he'll actually need.  How the notes he's playing fit into scales and etc, and a couple more practice pieces is most of what is left of what I have planned.  After that, it will be more a matter of getting together to jam a bit if/when possible, some "hey, try this.." and maybe helping him find or figure out some pieces/songs if he has trouble with it.

I don't count myself as much of a "teacher", and so when I have had to do it, I try to get done with it quick.  Show some basics, and then let them play and be a musician.

I also don't know jack about fiddling, so he's mostly on his own with that, anyway.  All I have focused on so far is playing melody and a bit of improvising and "finding my sound", so I haven't consciously worked on any sort of "style" myself yet.  That's the way I prefer to learn instruments, but it's not for everyone.  

 

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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ozmous
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October 16, 2012 - 7:53 am
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since violin teachers are "extinct" here...and if there were, they would be very expensive, a friend o' mine wants me to teach him because he says that he has a performance in their school, so after some time thinking, i've decided to teach him how to play the violin, and since he doesn't have a violin, he borrows mine, what i did was; first, the handling, i removed the chinrest(yes, he didn't need a chinrest, it's too high for him, he used some cloth as shoulderrest and that was it), then asked him to print the violin fingering chart, there he practiced the fingering all day, after that, i asked him to print an easy sheet music piece, w/c was "nearer my God to thee", that was his first tune, i taught him how to read the sheet music, then i told him to write the letters of the notes on the sheet music so that he won't have troubles, i also taught him my "primative" way of writing the notes, i taught him the bow hold, and the bowing, and at playing, when he gets a wrong note, i make him repeat and repeat until he makes the correct notation, i tutor him every saturday since we have class on weekdays, we practised for up to 5 sundays until the day of his performance, he borrowed my violin, and goes to school...after the performance, he then chatted on facebook saying that his teacher liked it...well, that's all :)

cheers! - ⁰ℨ

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Picklefish
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October 16, 2012 - 10:53 am
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" it only takes a spark, to get the fire going" hey, you are a teacher now! Success breeds success as they say. Keep practicing together and one day when yall get another violin you can play duets. Of course, if  you have a wash tub, a broom stick and some rope, he can play bass when you play and vice e versa!

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Kevin M.
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October 16, 2012 - 11:44 am
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Can I come and play my washboard? The music store near me actually sells washboards.

 

Maybe you could get better sound with some heavy fishing line?

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DanielB
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October 16, 2012 - 2:19 pm
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Gutbucket bass is a fun instrument.  I haven't heard of using heavy fishing line, but some home-brew cello and bass projects I've seen used weed whacker line.  I hear that can be bowed, so it might be an even more interesting choice.  More playing options. 

Already have a couple violins, an autoharp and a dulcimer, so maybe making a banjo out of a tunafish can or cookie tin would be more innovative.  Might take a bit more construction than something like a diddly-bo, but I have seen one on youtube that was made out of part of a Cadillac transmission that I thought was pretty impressive.

feature=relmfu

Knew a lady years ago who could play a mean set of spoons.  She also played dulcimer, though not at the same time.  I've never been good with percussion, myself.

I must admit that washboards are an instrument I have never understood, though.  How in the world do you tune them?

@ozmous:  Good going, Oz.  Your approach would be better for most folks.  But my friend has some sort of aversion to actual written music, since somewhere over the years he has gotten the notion that he'd never be able to learn to read it.  I've run into that with him before when trying to get him into other musical instruments.  Kind of annoying when you know someone who is fascinated with the instruments, has a good ear and sense of melody and rhythm, but has gotten this notion into their head that they can't play, can't learn to read music and where if you start talking theory, it is like a light turning off. 

@Picklefish: I will leave being a teacher to brave souls such as yourself.  Even on the instruments I can actually play, I don't have the skill-set that it takes to be a teacher.  Violin is an instrument that I am still quite a ways from "knowing how to play".  I'm still working on learning basics.  So far as any style of playing like fiddling?  I'm pretty much clueless, and I know it.  He's going to be on his own with that. 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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ozmous
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October 16, 2012 - 3:17 pm
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hey hey hey, the beatles started with those home-made bass as well:

the 3rd guy(len garry) from the left:

 

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and their first concert as the quarrymen:

 

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here's a clearer picture of the "tea chest" bassist:

 

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they also had a washboard, e/c was played by pete shotton:

 

Image Enlarger

cheers! - ⁰ℨ

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Almandin
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DanielB said

Already have a couple violins, an autoharp and a dulcimer

You have an autoharp? Wow, that's probably my favourite instrument (well, after the violin, of course!) I wanted to learn it so badly a few years ago, but I couldn't find any for sale in Sweden (nor, obviously, any teachers...) so I gave up. Pretty please, could you post a video where you play it?

Also, I like you teaching method! It sure seems to have worked too. Soon you'll be jamming together and sounding great, I'm sure. thumbs-up

~ Once you've ruled out the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be true. ~

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Fiddlerman
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October 16, 2012 - 8:01 pm
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Good stuff guys. Inspiration is one of the best tools a teacher has.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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DanielB
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The electric bass guitar was another instrument people pretty much made for themselves at first.  I've seen some pretty wild designs for such things in places like old issues of Popular Mechanics and such.

That second video that Picklefish posted is particularly interesting, since that isn't a usual gutbucket as I have ever seen them done.  The player is fingering it like an upright bass rather than using the stick to change tension on whatever he is using for strings.  Interesting, since the basic construction could be applied for making an electric upright bass or maybe a cello of sorts.

Well, different folks may think different on the concept, but I have personally never been averse to cobbling together an instrument to mess around with.  Good to get "proper" instruments and learn music in a "proper" sense.  But it can also be good to cobble together whatever you can and get a jam going and just have fun.  Washtub or "gut-bucket" basses, I think I first cobbled one together back in my teens.  And then again at a few parties over the years, at least in years gone by.  They don't project much, but you can get some pretty wild bass sounds out of them if you mess around a bit.  Hadn't thought of piezo pickups on one yet, but I should have.

But any way it can be done, if you can get someone playing even a bit on anything, the possibility that it will stir their interest enough to want to go further exists. 

@Almandin: My autoharp has a broken string I need to replace and no local place around here carries autoharp strings, of course.  But I'll see what I can do so far as at least an audio recording.  I still play it, since hey, 30 or so strings still work fine.  LOL  But it does kind of affect my choice of keys to play in on it.  Mine is an old Oscar Schmidt from probably about the 1960s or so.  I've been thinking of working up some backing tracks with autoharp for playing violin to on some songs, but haven't gotten around to it yet. 

One of the main reasons I took up violin was to have it for recording.  Using string "samples" on a keyboard just isn't the same, and I feel one never really writes good parts for instruments one doesn't actually play.  You can kinda get the sound with electronic keyboards and etc, but a lot of the spirit and feel of the actual instrument is just missing.    

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Fiddlestix
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Why don't you order a string for the autoharp online ?

Incidentally I made a washtub base about 8 year's ago. Back in the early 70's when I was banding, a friend of mine had one and used to bring it over for practice session's.

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DanielB
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Fiddlestix said
Why don't you order a string for the autoharp online ?

 

  Well, I have been meaning to, Fiddlestix.  But violins have kept being the priority, and then guitars.  I have a new set of strings for my oud sitting by it's case that I haven't gotten around to putting on yet because I'm usually playing violin and guitar mostly these days. 

One of the problems of having an assortment of instruments is keeping up with the upkeep. 

dunno

Even just making sure everything is tuned up takes a bit of time out of every day.  LOL

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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DanielB
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So the buddy I gave my Mendini MV300 "Punkin"  to dropped by tonight.  It was late, but I sorta have a space for late playing set up down in the basement, and he had Punkin with him so I could "check the tuning". 

He looked like it hadn't been a great day, said he didn't want to talk about it.  I said that was fine because I didn't really want to hear about it either (a reference to Disney's "Lion King" that is a bit of a household joke here), and we had a chuckle over that and got out the violins. 

After he ran through the parts of "Whisky in the Jar" that he's been working on, I had something ready for him that I'd done the other night.  I handed him some tab I'd scribbed out with no title on it, and told him to just try and play it through.  Didn't give any coaching or demonstration, just let him work it out.  He got a little ways in to the piece and got a puzzled look and played the first bits over again and then recognized that it was "Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer".  

He's only been playing for coming up on maybe a month now, but he did good enough that I think about anybody could have recognized the song from his playing.

Now at least some folks who have been playing for a while will remember the very first time they took an unknown piece of music and were able to play it just from a written notation or tab well enough to recognize it.  It can be a very memorable moment.  Kind of like you just got your Ovaltine decoder or Captain Crunch decoder ring.  You have cracked your first code and read the message, and you can feel like you are "in the club" a bit more.  (Of those rather dated references, only the Captain Crunch decoder ring is actually in my own childhood)

So with typical noob enthusiasm, he went back to working on the piece.  After he had worked through some bits a couple times and was starting to get them smoothed out a little, I started backing him with a little bit of rhythm played with single notes and easy double stops.  We even got some moments that were starting to sound like something.  Then I showed him how to do that and I played some bits from the song he was working on and other songs that would fit the same accompaniment.  

Then we took a short break and I explained that since he is using GDGD tuning, and the accompaniment we had been playing with was for G major, that pretty much any note where he once had a tape and any string should sound ok.  And we had some fun jamming for a while and trading back and forth.  He hadn't ever learned enough on any instrument to be able to jam before, and that can be another memorable "first" for a musician.

There was only one sorta bad moment.  He snagged his bow hairs on something and broke one and loosened 3 or 4 of them.  So I showed him how to trim off the broken one and how to carefully tighten the others with the flame from a lighter.  (Kids, don't try that trick at home unless the bow is cheap enough that you don't care or you just happen to have a backup)  So, no real disaster and he learned a trick I have found useful.

By the time we noticed the time, it had been a couple hours, and it was past time that he should really be heading home.  But we took a few minutes so I could show him some sites online where he could find tabs, and showed him how to tune from GDGD to standard GDAE tuning so he could use them and then tune back to GDGD again (yes, by harmonics).  He has a good ear and has been keeping Punkin so close to in tune that it is surprising.  Had him tune her back and forth between GDGD and standard a few times to make sure he had it down, and then finally he headed out to home.

It was a good session.  He'd come in feeling down and annoyed with the world and after playing for a while he was just stoked and in a great mood.  LOL  

That's what music does for us sometimes, though.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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cdennyb
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Great story there Daniel... you're a great wealth of info and apparently a good teacher to boot.

I have to ask... do you write your replies off line and then copy and paste them into the reply box at one time?

I try to type in a few lines, like this post and sometimes it just freezes up and I have to reload the page and completely retype it all. I have resorted to copy and then try to post and if it don't work then paste to a new posting reply box and it goes fine.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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DanielB
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I haven't been having problems with posting, Denny.  Has your browser or operating system been updated lately?  That's what I'd suspect if I run into that sort of problem.

I don't consider myself much of a teacher at all.  If I was teaching someone how to swim, I'd get them to the edge of the water and explain "Now this stuff here, is water.  You don't want to breathe it.  You need to breathe air.  So if you ever find yourself under the water, don't try to breathe until you manage to get your head or at least your nose up to where there is air.."

When I was pretty sure they understood that, I'd throw them in.  I wouldn't let them drown.  But it is just possible that they might learn how to swim at least somewhat from that experience. 

Or alternatively, put them in a life-jacket, take them out on a boat, have a similar little talk, and then get them to jump into the water or give them a push.  Paddling around in the life-jacket for a few min, they'd get an idea of most of the basic skills.  When they get to where they seem to be having some fun with it, get them to a safe depth for going without a life jacket and work on some "real swimming".

I don't know what one would call that, but I wouldn't call it "being a swimming instructor"  LOL

Some things you only really start to learn when you dive in, and I feel music is one of those things.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Well that does it, i'm starting to give Skype lesson's. Who want's to sign up ?  dunno

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DanielB
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Cool.  What are you going to teach?

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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RosinedUp
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ozmous said
hey hey hey, the beatles started

Wow, very resourceful, oz.  I wouldn't have expected anyone in the world to come up with pictures of Lennon and McCartney in bands with a tub bass or a washboard.  I figure you must be a pretty thorough-going Beatles fan.  Is that right?

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DanielB
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Back on the topic of weird old bass range instruments for a moment, not a home-made, but there was the old "tick-tack" bass.  An early sort of electric bass guitar that instead of being an octave lower than the 4 lower strings of a 6-string guitar, was a 6 string instrument that was tuned a 4th lower than a regular guitar.  Kind of of like a viola is from a violin (different interval, though), to give a different sound and just one string lower than "normal" guitar.   The Beatles used one of those on some songs, like Rocky Racoon. 

I used to have one of the Danelectro ones. 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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This post is a little long, so I am going to put a reply to Fiddlestix at the beginning instead of the end.  Skip this first part if you have no interest in that.

@Fiddlestix:

Well that does it, i'm starting to give Skype lesson's. Who want's to sign up ?  dunno

I kind of hope you weren't just kidding.  I did ask what you were thinking of teaching, meaning what scope, style(s), maybe an idea of possible repertoire, ballpark idea of what rates you'd charge?  Any prerequisites or auditions required? 

I might be interested, if that wasn't meant as humor.  At the moment, budget and the holidays coming up would be in the way, but I know that at least somewhere in the early part of the new year, I expect to be hitting the "one year wall/plateau".  So I have been looking around a bit to see who does give lessons and looking into the details a bit, since even a few lessons can help bust that plateau and I may have enough basics down by then. 

If it was just humor, I would respectfully suggest that you reconsider.  You are a fine player, Fiddlestix.  Lots of experience, I've heard a little of your playing that you've posted and you have some good style that is at least close to some of what I want to be able to do someday.  You know more about the instrument itself than most folks.

I think you could be a very good teacher, and definitely one that I would seriously consider taking some lessons from, if it is an actual option.  I don't think I am the only one who might be interested, either.  If you were joking, ok, I fell for it.  Have your laugh, it was a good one.  But I wasn't joking or laughing.  Just sayin'.

dunno 

 

-----

So there was another short "lesson" tonight.  He had to show off how much work he's put into the new song over the past 24 hrs.  LOL  And had some questions about tab, since I hadn't explained all the symbols used in the ones he ran into online. 

I don't use tab much, myself.  Nothing wrong with it, but if you already know standard notation, tab doesn't have much of an advantage.  It's easy enough to pick up and probably good to know in case one runs into a piece you want to play that might only be available in tab sometimes, or for being able to communicate with players who use it.

I think of standard notation vs tab notation as being sort of like learning English (or any other "standard" language) vs Esperanto (Google Esperanto if you haven't heard of it and are wondering).  Tab is quicker to learn, in some ways, but not as widely used.  It can sure work to allow a person to read a new song and so they can communicate musical ideas, but there isn't near as much material available in it because not as many people use it.  And I don't use tab myself enough to be particularly fluent in it for fiddle/violin tab or even guitar tab.  But enough that I can figure it out when I run into it.

With this particular person, it's not like he "isn't smart enough" to learn standard notation or anything like that.  (Nor do I feel that to be true of other tab players, either.)  But time was limited for "lessons", since I only promised him a month's worth.  He had a bit of mental block against standard notation from grade school music classes, and I knew that from knowing him over the years.  Also he is the sort of person that responds better to learning if they can think of it as "picking up a few tricks" rather than formally learning a subject step by step from the very basics.

Another consideration was that the person is already what I would call a musician, though some might not.  He was a party DJ in years gone by and worked up some of his own pieces and songs using software like sequencers.  That uses loops and segments, but when the person also writes their own loops and segments to use from scratch, I personally would call that "writing music" and "song-writing".  Probably some wouldn't.  But so he has the sense of how to use timing/duration, if something is in tune or not, can hear some intervals, recognize if a chord or scale is major or minor by the sound, and so on.  Just never has really done it with an actual physical instrument.  Which was something I always felt was a shame.  He has a good ear and a good sense of composition and can come up with things that are listenable/danceable. 

So an unusual sort of "student", and not a situation where I felt I was having to "teach music" in any standard sense.  Just getting him past some obstacles and showing him a few things to get him going enough that he can enjoy it and get enthused and excited enough about it to want to play.  I honestly think that is all he needed.  He thinks he needs more, but "officially" so far as I am concerned, the whole "teacher/lesson" thing is done as of about Nov 4.  So he can get a couple more lesson sessions in before then if he likes.  But I think that for "4 lessons" so far, he has done very good and doesn't actually *need* a "teacher".

Tonight we went over a few points of the tab notation and how it applied to a tab version of "Jingle Bells" he found.  I saw he was using little arrows to show remind himself whether to start a section or phrase on up or down stroke to have it feel right.  So I showed him the standard notation marks for bow strokes, since it was a good opportunity for that.  Also showed how to dot notes to show staccato.  Things like that work as well on a tab score as they do on standard notation and there's no point in re-inventing the wheel if you don't have to.

He's finding standard notation a bit more interesting as a concept now that he knows what a few of the symbols mean and that the "lines and dots" were originally just a way to cue children singing songs.  Knowing that it is as much of a "cheat" as tab, well, he might want to learn more about it someday.  Time will tell.

In my opinion, the biggest obstacle to learning to read music is is having to get over the idea that it is "something hard".   Standard notation, like tab, was the most simple and easy way possible that somebody could come up with to show sounds via marks that could be scribbled down on a piece of paper.  Once a person understands that, then I think almost anyone can learn how to read music (standard notation or tab) pretty fast.  

Sight-reading at tempo is another matter.  That takes time and practice to be able to do well, like learning touch typing does.  I can't do that on violin myself, because I haven't put that work in yet.  But anyone who can type well enough to post or chat and learn symbols mean something well enough to use the icons to be able to post a reply and navigate this site.. Well, learning standard notation or tab well enough to be able to work a piece out or scribble down an idea is the most important part, in my opinion.  I believe that everyone who has ever posted here is definitely more than "smart enough", if they want to learn to read music.  Anyone new who thinks they can't is selling themselves short.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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ozmous
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October 30, 2012 - 7:31 am
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RosinedUp said  I figure you must be a pretty thorough-going Beatles fan.  Is that right?

 

hahaha! you've got that right! I've been a fan of them long before I became a fan of classical amuse

cheers! - ⁰ℨ

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