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Geared Pegs
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Dan-Hur
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January 27, 2016 - 9:08 pm
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I was looking at the Perfection Pegs, or geared pegs, in the Fiddlershop and I wondered if anyone here has used them. I've been thinking about installing them because, honestly, I can't really see a reason not to. It wouldn't my feelings to make tuning a little easier.

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BillyG
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January 28, 2016 - 7:59 am
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I believe one of our members - John Luck ( @Ferret ) - has done that and is perfectly happy - I understand he undertook the installation himself - but -there are quite a number of things to consider before just "ordering the pegs" ( you *may* have to use a taper-reamer to adjust the peg-hole size, and so on ).  

But - I'm not 100% sure what John did - so DO research it well before-hand if you intend fitting them yourself, just to be safe...

BillyG

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes.  

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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micra
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January 28, 2016 - 9:13 am
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I had the Planetary Perfection Pegs installed by a professional luthier a couple of months ago- I absolutely LOVE them.  Got rid of the one finer tuner that I had on the E string at the same time.  Tuning went from a dreaded chore to an absolute delight.  Very very happy with them.  🙂

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Jacques
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January 28, 2016 - 12:01 pm
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I use the Wittner finetune pegs and they work well ... I had to install the large diameter version on my fiddle ... No fine tuners on the tailpiece surely improves the sympathetic sounds of your violin ... The instrument hold's its tune better .

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BillyG
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January 28, 2016 - 12:15 pm
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micra said
....   Tuning went from a dreaded chore to an absolute delight.  Very very happy with them.  🙂

That's cool !

I "wimped out" and have fine tuners on all 4 strings.   Although - having said that - I DO use the pegs at times.   What I discovered is ( and it is just me and what I do ) - when I re-tune with the pegs - I don't bother using the tuner ( I use a "Snark" - anyway whatever ) - and just draw the strings into what to my ear sounds like 5ths apart ( and, when I DO go out of my way to measure it, it's close enough not to matter )

But equally - I have to say that my three violins are in a pretty much stable environment - both humidity and temperature - and they rarely drift to any worrying / discernible extent that can't be corrected by fingering.

On occasions when not soloing but playing to a backing track, yes, I'll pull the strings in, and, yup, I'll use the Snark - and like 99 times out of 100 it's all within the range of movement on the fine tuners - and when it isn't - I'll back-off the tuners, and re-tension using the pegs - good for another 3 months or till time to renew the strings..... LOL

I'm not disagreeing in any way with your findings at all - in fact  - being a guitar-man from the old days - the super-fine-and easy control from these pegs reminds me just how easy it is to tune up the guitar - it must indeed be an absolute delight to do that on the violin  !!!!!!    Nice !    

Good to hear you got your luthier to do the fitting - I would still advocate caution to anyone about undertaking this yourself unless you're prepared for some DIY...

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes.  

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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BillyG
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January 28, 2016 - 1:55 pm
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Interesting @jaquecaviolin - I know there are a lot of ( very subtle ) points made about the effect of the presence or absence of fine tuners - many of the observations I have read refer to the actual effect on the sound ( and, although my "ear" is reasonable - to be honest - I hear nothing untoward on my 3 violins, all with 4 fine-tuners).  Other comments about fine tuners I have read relate to issues connected with the "mechanics and construction" of the FT mechanism itself - some people suggest there is at times ( maybe depending on bow-power/loudness on the string ) a tendency to hear a "rattle" sound...    Personally, no, I've never heard that - and I sometimes beat my poor fiddle to within an inch of its death with bow-hairs breaking and flying in the air..... LOL and it's all good.   But - having said that - oddly enough - on my EV - I *WAS* aware of a darned irritating rattle/buzzing sound when playing forte....   it actually came down to a loose (and unused / un-soldered ) pin on the jack socket.   A spot of epoxy resin sorted it out ( like after 2 days trying to find where the noise was coming from !!! LMAO - but that's another story )

I'm unable to quantify ( because I have nothing to compare it against ) the "better or worse" sympathetic tones produced with / or without the presence of the fine tuner mechanisms - but - yes - I have read a lot about this as well - even into the detail of the effect of the (marginally) shortened string length and so on - for me - right now - that is just "splitting hairs" ( hahaha no pun intended ) - and WAAAAY to subtle for me to even be aware of - BUT - YES - one day I am definitely going to experiment with this.   It seems the "preferred" configuration is only one FT on the E, or, as some would also argue, none at all.  

Interesting.    Sounds like a summer project for me....  And yes, the Wittner tuners have a fine reputation, and, having looked at this, these are most likely what I would go with for the experiment...

Thanks for your feedback !

I seriously recommend not copying my mistakes.  

Please make your own, different mistakes, and help us all learn :-)

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Dan-Hur
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January 28, 2016 - 10:12 pm
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Yeah, I heard that you might have to fit the pegs. I wouldn't be too worried about that, the violin I'm thinking about installing them in is pretty new, so I don't think they'd need finished. Even if they do, I'm capable of doing the procedure, I'd just need the reamer. Thanks for the info, everyone 

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cdennyb
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January 29, 2016 - 12:49 am
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You can get an idea whats involved by watching this video for the Knilling Geared pegs.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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cdennyb
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January 29, 2016 - 12:51 am
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If you are looking for a peg reamer, they are all pretty much the same. I prefer a straight flute reamer with a half round set of cutters as opposed to the spiral reamer. Here's an ebay ad for both.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-d.....SwHQ9WX~ho

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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damfino
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January 29, 2016 - 10:10 am
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Never heard of geared pegs before... other than the old style I've seen on some antiques, anyway. Very interesting!

~ I'm not torturing cats... I'm learning to play violin! ~

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Crazymotive
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February 15, 2016 - 1:16 pm
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I have a wittner tailpiece with a fine tuner on each string. Early on I used to use the pegs for tuning the string into the "ballpark" of its desired frequency and then use the fine tuners for getting the strings tuned to the precise pitch.  These days however I have been using primarily just the pegs alone for tuning. Fortunately on my violin the pegs are very well fitted to the instrument and they turn easily yet stay locked in place once I am tuned. So virtually anything I can do with a fine tuner I can accomplish with the pegs by tweaking them up or down a bit.  However, I am aware that on some violins the pegs tend to stick and jump and you either end up tuning to sharp or too flat. Sometimes I bit of peg compound will help. Or you can bring the violin to a luthier and have him fit the pegs so they turn more freely yet hold the string in tune once you hit that perfect spot.  Then there are the geared pegs as discussed above, yet another option.

Since my pegs work smoothly I am thinking of replacing the Wittner tailpiece with an ebony tailpiece and using a fine tuner only on the E string.  Sometimes even with the best and smoothest turning pegs getting the E string right on can be difficult w/o a fine tuner.

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Crazymotive
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February 15, 2016 - 1:19 pm
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damfino said
Never heard of geared pegs before... other than the old style I've seen on some antiques, anyway. Very interesting!

I have seen them used quite often on bass violins and even on some cello's but rarely on the viola or the violin. Nonetheless some people do use them on the smaller members of the string family and seem to like them,

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Fiddlerman
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February 16, 2016 - 10:01 pm
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"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Dan-Hur
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February 17, 2016 - 1:30 pm
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That's actually the first place I saw them. At some point, I think I'll give the Wittner set a try, but not right away. I wonder why they aren't more popular, they seem like a natural evolution for the instrument. I understand tradition, but even the violin has changed over time.

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micra
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February 17, 2016 - 9:00 pm
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Dan-Hur said
I wonder why they aren't more popular, they seem like a natural evolution for the instrument. I understand tradition, but even the violin has changed over time.

Once you try them, you'll wonder even more.  And even That is an understatement.

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Fiddlerman
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February 17, 2016 - 9:18 pm
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For a guy like me, normal pegs are super fast to use while geared pegs make changing strings a slow and tedious process. Also, some real solid wood pegs can be works of art. Many people don't like the look of the plastic pegs.
Not knocking it, just replying to your statements.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Crazymotive
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February 17, 2016 - 10:49 pm
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Fiddlerman said
For a guy like me, normal pegs are super fast to use while geared pegs make changing strings a slow and tedious process. Also, some real solid wood pegs can be works of art. Many people don't like the look of the plastic pegs.
Not knocking it, just replying to your statements.

I find myself in the same camp. Plus I am also quite a traditionalist when it comes to musical instruments and the violin in particular. When I first started learning the violin decades ago very few students had fine tuners and we were taught to use just the regular pegs. The only problem is that one some of the student grade violins of the day the pegs were not always well fitted and were often difficult to turn or adjust. These days having a violin with well fitted and smooth turning pegs I have come to appreciate how well the traditional pegs work.Not one can I change out strings fast but I find that I can tune up faster as well and get the tuning spot on. I use the ebony pegs but some of those rosewood pegs look pretty awesome too.

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Dan-Hur
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February 17, 2016 - 11:15 pm
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That makes sense, I didn't even think about changing strings. And yeah, I've seen some really beautiful carved pegs, both ebony and rosewood. For me, though, I think it'd make sense. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the pegs and I don't change strings that often.

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