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Play-in device experiment
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (2 votes) 
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DanielB
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I have to admit to being kind of surprised at the sound.  I didn't think violins are really designed to be musical speakers except at certain key frequencies, and they don't look much like any sort of speaker I am used to.  Not as good as properly crossed-over 3-way stereo speakers with a good subwoof or anything, but definitely listenable enough to be pleasant.  Definitely more pleasant than some clock radios and portable radios/players I have heard over the years.  The thing that surprised me the most was that the legibility and expression of vocals through it was very good.  With any sort of makeshift speaker, that usually will be where it will really let you down. 

I think it does give some insight into why violins/fiddles have such a unique and intriguing sound.

Even if this experiment doesn't yield any results I find useful so far as improving the violin's sound, I'll still have learned enough interesting things about the instrument from hands-on experimentation that I feel it will have been more than worthwhile.

One of the reasons I tried a variety of different materials, shapes and methods is so I also know some other ways this could be done that have been tested at least enough that I can expect they'd work well enough.  I'm trying to keep this project to a low cost DIY sort of thing, so if we do find something good with it, other players here can do it for themselves.  At present, even buying everything new, it could probably be done for maybe 20$ USD.  With a little ingenuity and scrounging the pieces, even less than that.  I didn't actually spend anything yet for this project, it has all been things I had around the house.

200$ or so for a store bought gadget is more than I'd usually spend just to try something and see if it works.  Sure, that could be "chump change" to some folks for something that might make their violin(s) sound even a little better, and some folks would probably rather get something store-bought than have to cobble a rig together.  But I ain't one of those people.  ROFL

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Fiddlestix
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Barry said
very cool idea !!

 

I wonder if it will learn those tunes  rofl

 

sorry, couldnt resist , but seriously, great idea

thumbs-up

I think that would be like instrument imprinting or a quarter slot like a juke box.  rofl

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cdennyb
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I wonder if the food int he pantry will taste better or perhaps last longer on the shelf now that vibes are being transmitted thru the air in there.

Hmmm... better than foil to prolong freshness. roflolroflolroflolroflolfacepalm

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Barry
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cdennyb said
I wonder if the food int he pantry will taste better or perhaps last longer on the shelf now that vibes are being transmitted thru the air in there.

Hmmm... better than foil to prolong freshness. roflolroflolroflolroflolfacepalm

Maybe if I'd  of wore one of them foil hats I would have been protected from the darkside

coffee2

There is no shame in playing twinkle, youre playing Mozart

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DanielB
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Food *always* tastes better with a bit of music!  I figure with a little bit of entertainment now being present in the pantry though, things like cookies and candies won't last as long, since it may get more frequent raids or folks may "graze" longer when on such raids.  LOL  'Course, I suppose they won't go stale either (not that they usually do). 

Got everything set up and running last night, so the experiment is now underway.  The "before" recording was made.  The actual hookup ended up being a slight pain in the butt because the way the shelf is situated and the device cables being short, I ended up having to go to the dollar store to pick up a USB extension cable, an audio extension cable and an extension cord.

I also had to adjust the computer volume way down, since it's output was a lot hotter than the little mp4 player I used for my initial tests.  The volume is currently set to about what one might use for background music in a typical room.  Doesn't sound bad, a little mid-rangey and a little light on the bass, but as I said before, better than a lot of small radios I've heard.  It was a bit rough sounding for the first half hour or so, with sudden volume jumps up and down that I figure was the point of contact between the device and the violin getting settled.  It's not on there with a lot of pressure or jammed onto the bridge, probably a gram or so of pressure.  However, after the first half hour or so it settled out, and I ended up adjusting the volume down slightly, since it could be heard a bit further through the house than I had been planning on.

Kind of neat having those sounds coming out of my violin, since I sure can't play that well.  LOL  Violins also seem to make nice little reverb chambers, since there seems to be a bit of echo to the sound.

I figure on leaving it running constantly for at least 24 hrs before taking the violin out to play.  The ToneRite folks recommend 72 hrs for the initial treatment with their device.  The guy whose site I gave a link to left it hooked up for weeks.  I'm not keen on the idea of not playing my acoustic for even 72 hrs, but I figure I can manage 24 without going into withdrawl too bad, considering I can still play on my electric.

I am guessing that the ToneRite folks say 72 since maybe that is how long it takes for vibration to make a difference an average player might notice.  On the other hand, their device is supposed to be quiet enough that you don't even hear it (which makes no sense to me, since if it vibrates the top of an acoustic stringed instrument, how can that be silent??).  This is definitely not that quiet, and touching the top or the strings, one can definitely feel the vibration.  

My big question now is whether the little rig I cobbled together will actually hold together.  I won't be overly surprised if there end up being some mechanical problems, since vibration testing usually is pretty rough on electronic gear in electronics factories.  I used to work test bench in an electronics plant and vibration testing usually caused as many failures as the temp tolerance ovens.  Most gear these days just isn't engineered to hold up real well.  Time will tell.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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DanielB
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Ok, I am declaring at least the first phase of testing done at a little over 120 hrs.  I had originally planned on the 72 hrs that ToneRite recommends for their device, but this isn't their device and amount of playing time I was told as a rule of thumb years ago was about 100 hours.  I was told that it could be as little as 75 or as much as 150, in the opinion of a guitar repair guy who I consider to know his stuff.  I've put in at least 30 hrs of actual playtime, so it made sense to me to leave it in "treatment" long enough that (assuming it works) it would take the instrument through at least most of the playing in period.

I did use enough willpower (and playing on my electric) that the acoustic violin was left completely undisturbed for the entire time.

Before talking any more about it, I'll post the before and after recordings, since that will probably be what most people with any interest in this topic are actually the most interested in.

 

 

Details.  By a bit of luck, relative humidity and temperature here in the house are almost identical for when the samples were taken before and after.  I had wondered when hearing accounts of the differences noted with de-damping experiments, if humidity and temp were the same before and after.  As any player usually will notice, those factors do make some differences in how an instrument sounds.

I haven't gotten to actually play on the instrument yet, since it is the wee hours of the morning here and folks are asleep.  So all I did was the few quick takes it took to do the sample. 

I took some pains to make sure the equipment setting were identical, but ran into a problem there.  While I put my condenser mic's preamp into a box so the settings wouldn't get messed with, levels still ended up being different, and the "after" sample was enough louder that I had to adjust levels down to avoid peaking.  I should ideally have allowed for more "running room" and recorded the before sample a bit more below 0 Db to allow for that possibility, but I didn't think there would be any large difference.  Having to adjust that may throw off the signal to noise ratio, and we won't likely get as clear a picture of any difference in volume/power as I would have liked.  I should have thought of that, but I didn't.  Ah well.

On the other hand, that would indicate that the 'treatment' did seem to have made the instrument a bit louder, which was also my first impression just going by ear. 

I don't want to say too much that would be subjective observations until after Denny has had a chance to run his analysis.  I'm pretty sure my ears do hear some difference, and the analysis I do (FFT) showed some differences.  Denny has more experience with making sense of the graphs for violin, and I think his software may be better suited.  I will day that my own analysis showed some changes in the low ranges of sound below the lowest note of the instrument.  I found that a bit surprising, since I haven't ever seen that range change much with an instrument unless structural changes have occurred. 

I will indulge in one purely subjective observation from a player perspective.  It felt easier.  Like there was less "push-back" from the strings, and what I usually call the "groove" (personal slang for the tendency of an instrument to seem to somehow help one play in tune) were things I noticed that seemed different to me.  To me, it has always seemed that an instrument somehow is just easier to play after it has been "played in".  But that is subjective and could all be chalked up to psychology or my maybe note accurately remembering how it felt a few days ago.

A point of pride.. Amelia held tune beautifully.  When I checked tuning, the D string was the only one that had shifted at all and it was a very minor shift up in pitch, 2 Hz or less.  To me, that is one of the things I personally always consider a sign of a quality instrument.  One that isn't so good will fall out of tune a lot even if not played, from the normal temp and humidity changes in the household.  Amy has always held her tune as well as any of my favourite "veteran" instruments. 

A few notes/details that might or might not matter to Denny.. Levels needed to be adjusted down a bit, so that may have thrown off signal/noise ratios in the sound between the two samples.  I don't know how much that affects your analysis software.  Barometric  pressure when the second sample was taken was different, about half an inch lower.  (change from 29.9 to 29.5)  That will affect how the human ear hears a little, but since we are close mic-ing, I don't think it likely to throw the trace too much.  I haven't ever heard thoughts on how much barometric changes may affect instrument sound, but it is a parameter I could track and where I noticed a change.  Temp for both samples was within a degree of 65 degrees, relative humidity around 45% and within 2% in any case.

The bow was not rosined between tests, since it was not used during that time.  So amount and type of rosin were as close as possible to identical, and bow tension was just what was sufficient to be able to measure 1/4 inch between hair and bow at their closest point.  

I taped the spots on the floor where the mic had been and I stood during the first test to acoustic factors would be as close as possible. 

Not perfect, and I am still a bit annoyed that I didn't think to allow a few more decibels of room between the first sample and zero in case of a change in volume (which is one of the most often reported effects of "de-damping" experiments, and I should have thought of).  But ah well, it was about the best I could manage so far as keeping parameters consistent.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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DanielB
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I doubt if anyone has been waiting with bated breath over this, but Denny was kind enough to run an analysis on the before and after samples. 

It does appear that musical vibrations sent through the instrument in this fashion do make at least some small measurable differences.  So this experiment suggests that such concepts/devices are not entirely a BS sort of notion or something that belongs with the articles on tinfoil hats.

I would not jump to the conclusion that it is a miracle cure that will make the average 50$ ebay violin suddenly sound like a Strad or something.  But it does seem to have some effect that does not appear to be entirely placebo or psychological.

I think that other than Denny and I, few people here actually have much interest in things like frequency charts, and probably most typical forum members are pretty bored with this topic by now. 

So unless there are any particular questions or discussion, I figure it's probably about time to stick a fork in this topic and call it done?

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Kevin M.
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Daniel my question to you is do notice a difference and if so do you think the violin will revert after a time of not being played.  I have heard that violins in a museum are regularly played to keep them ion shape.

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DanielB
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I think that it would likely "go to sleep" in the sense of sounding less "played in" if it were left unplayed for weeks or months, just like an instrument that was played-in normally would.

I do feel that I hear a difference.  I will qualify that statement by saying that I don't feel it makes as much difference as a different brand/type of strings or rosin makes to the sound of a violin.  So I would say that from this one experiment, it seems to be more on the order of "fine tuning" level of change than something astonishing.

Before Denny or I did any frequency analysis, I played the instrument for a couple of sessions to see what impression my ears got.  I don't know the proper terminology for sound changes in violin, so I'll state it in terms I'd use for human voice when recording.  I hear a bit of boost in the ranges where you might touch up EQ to make the words a female singer is singing more clear.  Not just more of it, though, that range also seems smoothed out a bit. 

Another thing I noticed was when I first took her out of the case this morning to play for a bit, she didn't need the usual 15 min or so of playing to "warm up" that I am used to.  Usually I feel the sound is a little rough for that first few minutes.  The device hadn't been used overnight, it was usual time spent put away in the case, but it sounded/felt more like the instrument had just been played for a while and was already "warmed up".

Other people who have heard the instrument in person or via the sample recordings who are not violinists claimed to hear different things.  But interestingly, nobody picked the "before" sample as the better one. 

This is one test on a single instrument, though, so I wouldn't consider it conclusive.  It is even possible that if someone used it on an instrument where they already liked the sound, that they might not feel the changes were desirable or something they personally wanted.

At the most, I would say it is one more tool/technique that can be used in adjusting the sound of a violin/fiddle.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Annon

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I think the concept is probably fairly slumpy-2134ound.  However, my observation is that vibration from the strings is transmitted into the instrument at multiple points; not only does the bridge transmit energy, but the nut absorbs some vibration directly and the fingerboard also takes some of the vibration indirectly as the strings vibrate over it, et cetera.  These pulses would then be distributed over the rest of the body to reinforce or attenuate vibration coming from other directions; essentially, the complexity of energy distribution would be astounding and very difficult to simulate.  

I don't suppose these play-in machines can completely simulate actual usage of the instrument...or are they close enough?

99 % of the people I meet are self absorbed human waste sphincters.
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ratvn
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Thank you both, Deny and Daniel for the analysis and the conclusion which is very well done.

It reinforces my observation as well, Daniel. I hear differences in my violin but I thought it could be my impression/expectation, but your conclusion describes it very well. The sound is more defined, clearer with more harmonics/overtones throughout the range and more volume. My violin "speaks" more easily with fuller sounds and responds better to bowing changes.

But it's a bit different than yours. The last time that mine (with separated seams and no strings/no bridge), was played and vibrated as a whole sound box under tension is probably many years ago. So any low frequency vibration exercise is good for it and the improvement is fairly noticeable.

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DanielB
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I don't think any simple device can perfectly duplicate what happens during playing in.  As you said, there are multiple points of vibration, and there are factors like handling and bow pressure that may be important.  I also think that time is involved and there is no way to 100% emulate the process in a few days.

But can it do enough to be useful or act as an aid to the natural playing in process?  i think that may be possible.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Annon

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DanielB said
I don't think any simple device can perfectly duplicate what happens during playing in.  As you said, there are multiple points of vibration, and there are factors like handling and bow pressure that may be important.  I also think that time is involved and there is no way to 100% emulate the process in a few days.

But can it do enough to be useful or act as an aid to the natural playing in process?  i think that may be possible.

I find this subject fascinating to contemplate.  Another issue possibly detrimental to the instrument is the number of constant frequencies applied for  long periods.  If the applied frequency is not complex or introduced at various points there may be areas of the instrument which receive more or less energy than what is normally distributed over the whole thing when played naturally. What if the lack of homogeneous energy distribution concentrated vibrations that caused excessive cellular or structural deterioration which reduced the quality of sound otherwise obtained when the instrument is broken-in by play?treble-1226

99 % of the people I meet are self absorbed human waste sphincters.
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DanielB
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@ratvn:  Excellent.  Glad to hear you also got some results from trying it.  We get enough people trying it and seeing if they get a result and we may get a clearer picture of what is going on here.

 

@Annon: At least the earlier versions of the ToneRite device appear to have been a single frequency, from what I could tell from the patent documentation.  I didn't study it intensively, but I'm pretty sure it was basically a transducer/vibrator running on 60 or 50 hz.  Newer models apparently have some other options, but I didn't see any reports of the older ones having any bad effects from being a single low frequency.  Doesn't mean there may not have been some in cases where it was left running constantly in the case for a year or something, though.

I used actual music and restricted it to just violin sounds mostly because it seemed most logical to me to try and replicate the frequencies and durations just in case it maybe does make a difference.  But for all we know, it may not actually matter.  Without a good sized test group, it would be inadvisable to draw any conclusions too quickly, though. 

I can think of a case where any sort of an extended vibration treatment could harm the sound of a violin/fiddle, though.  At some points in the history of the violin, makers have tried making the top very thin, to make instruments that are highly responsive even without any break-in period or that needed very little play-in.  I have seen it mentioned that instruments made like that can actually become "played out", in that after some years of regular play, the top becomes "flabby" enough (for lack of a better word) that they lose power and tone, rather than the sound improving with age and playing.

However, most inexpensive violins are just the opposite and tend to have rather thick plates. The somewhat heavier plates have potentially the most to gain from playing-in (or perhaps some sort of vibration treatment).  With reasonable care, maintenance and perhaps proper repairs eventually replacing where a poor glue may have been used or etc, and probably some eventual refinishing, there is no reason to assume some of the inexpensive violins made, sold and bought today may not still be playing a century or more from now.  For all we know, they may also sound wonderful by then and be highly prized possessions.  One of the reasons I feel it is important to respect even a humble musical instrument. 

Before anyone laughs too hard over that thought, If you read articles from the early to mid 1900s, the "German Trade Violins" were apparently considered crap by many musical authorities of those days.  They were cheap factory made violins/fiddles.  But some of them that are still playing or maybe even are heirlooms today sure do sound mighty nice and often look really good.     

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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ratvn
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DanielB said 
I can think of a case where any sort of an extended vibration treatment could harm the sound of a violin/fiddle, though.  At some points in the history of the violin, makers have tried making the top very thin, to make instruments that are highly responsive even without any break-in period or that needed very little play-in.  I have seen it mentioned that instruments made like that can actually become "played out", in that after some years of regular play, the top becomes "flabby" enough (for lack of a better word) that they lose power and tone, rather than the sound improving with age and playing.

I can attest to some of those as my violin top (the one under testing is a copy of Stradivari) is very thin and the whole thing is very light in weight comparing to my other three Strad copies. This violin is surprisingly getting better and better with just a few days of playing (very noticeable from the time it was put back together as one piece). However, to cope with "playing out", high quality wood would negate that action so the violin could retain its power and tone, I think.

As I've read, there are two kinds of good Carpathian spruce using for top plate, one is light and extremely flexible and the other is thicker/darker. My violin happens to have the lighter one, but very fine and straight grain structure of Carpathian spruce (Picea Abies, that is around Europe countries, and for comparison I have another one with the heavier/darker top).

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Annon

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I appreciate the well structured and dignified responses.....thank you gentlemen

99 % of the people I meet are self absorbed human waste sphincters.
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ratvn
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Annon said 

Another issue possibly detrimental to the instrument is the number of constant frequencies applied for  long periods.  If the applied frequency is not complex or introduced at various points there may be areas of the instrument which receive more or less energy than what is normally distributed over the whole thing when played naturally.

That was also my initial impression, Annon. But come to think about vibration in nature, nothing would be in single frequency. In fact, as soon as some medium, being water, wood, air etc., is under vibration, even generated from a single frequency source, then there is always a whole complex harmonics series of frequencies (of the primary) along with some induced/sympathetic frequencies (properties of material, dimension, mass etc.) that are also present in that vibration. For sure there would be the perfect fifth, fourth intervals musically etc.

It is very is possible that the ToneRite design, using low power, low frequency vibrator, would generate enough harmonics frequency to benefit violin playing-in while inhibit/reduce the higher harmonics with enough power when enter ultrasonic range, as vibrating in these frequency will break loose particles/joints, to harm the violin structure/components.

Just my two cents.

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cdennyb
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here's the traces Daniel for comparison.

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"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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ratvn
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Thank you for posting the chart, cdennyb. I was curious about this too.

But since it is in your alleys, gentlemen, a little explanation would be so helpful. And of course, there should be my interpretation of the chart first, albeit a bad/incorrect one, so please correct me if I'm wrong (so I can learn how to read better).

From reading it, Daniel 1 seems to be louder/more volume associated with fuller sound, sweeter and warmer? More harmonics, sustain ringing in between note/pitch?

Correct me please.

Thanks again for your time and for posting this.

Best regards, 

Robert

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cdennyb
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In general now...

=the less amplitude between the peaks and valleys is more desireable.

=the smoother the trace is is more desireable.

=the less db value, the louder but not necessarily cleaner the sound.

=the lower frequencies are seldom very much different between violins.

=the biggest positive difference in sound comes from reduced peaks & valleys, regardless the db level achieved.

=the individual peaks that occur in both traces are referred to as the "fingerprint" of the instrument and regardless of the strings you put on it, or the bridge you install, those characteristic peaks will always show up, sometimes small and sometimes larger than originally traced.

=the "fingerprint" will follow an instrument for decades, (e.g. fiddlermans violin has the same trace peaks and valleys, although slightly different in db value, from traces done from recordings 20 years ago and recording done only months ago)

=the only way to change the "fingerprint" of the instrument is to physically change the structure of the wood, in example, seperate the halves and scrape or chisel/gouge wood from the plates.

     An instrument with a significant P & V trace will benefit from bridge modifications and fine tuning of the setup. Some violins will respond well to different string lengths and afterlengths and with the bridge work, a significant reduction in the P & V variation is achieved and thus better cleaner brighter sound is also achieved.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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