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Play-in device experiment
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (2 votes) 
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ratvn
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December 12, 2012 - 4:17 am
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Thank you for your great lesson. I learned a lot from your explanation and it makes a lots of sense.

I was wondering about those P&V as it extremely hard to reproduce two graphs with the same peak frequencies, even under strict control lab environment in different time period. Your fingerprint analogy states it so well, and I assume it is from the material, construction etc. that each individual violin exhibits as a sounding/vibrating medium in whole.

Thanks again for the great lesson.

Best regards,

Robert

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Fiddlestix
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December 12, 2012 - 7:02 am
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I noticed the graph followed the same line's ? or pattern on both test's. I thought, in order to follow the same graph pattern for two test's that each recording had to be identical, play the same note's.

Would string quality make a difference on "play in", or could one use bailing wire ?

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DanielB
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December 12, 2012 - 8:54 am
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I probably won't explain this well, but I'll give it a try.  You know how they can identify people by voice-print, right?  Even if the person doesn't say the same words or tries to disguise their voice by talking higher or lower than usual or muffles their voice, certain characteristics in the graph will still be unique to that one person's voice.  The software Denny uses seems to work quite similar.  He could probably even get something like the same graph if the violin wasn't played, just tapped. 

I don't use the same software and I'm not educated in it's use, so I don't claim to understand much beyond the basics Denny explained here, since he has explained the same thing to me before when I asked about it.  But his analysis has shown the consistent fingerprint he mentions when he is doing an analysis of the same instrument playing a different song, or with different strings, etc.  That is very useful because it shows changes to the sound of the violin itself. 

I use a different sort of frequency analysis and in a different way, but it is not as useful in a case like this.  I can get some information from it, but it is affected quite a bit by the mic used and the volume levels the recorder is set at, and it also is definitely affected by what is played.  Denny is also more experienced at getting information relating to tone and characteristics of the violin than I am.  I never worked on or with violins much at all before 2012, and I haven't done much work on them at all yet. 

If it was a guitar or a voice, I'd have more of an idea what I am looking at on a graph.  I know what frequency ranges do what on guitar and voice better.  Like what ones make it sound more powerful without really increasing volume or make the words a singer is singing easier to understand or to bring guitar or voice out more in the mix.  That sort of thing is covered in recording classes.  Violin in particular wasn't covered, though.

The main thing I wanted to know was if there was a measurable difference.  Logically, just sitting in the case a few days wouldn't make a difference.  So if there is a difference, there is a good chance it was due to the musical vibration used in the experiment.  That is mostly what I wanted to know.  Can a gadget make some difference, or was it all a load of BS.  I mean, you have to admit that the whole concept does sound kinda like somebody peddling snake oil to sell a commercial gadget that runs a few hundred dollars.  But it looks like it does do something.

As far as if the strings matter for "playing in"..  I don't know.  I would think that they probably make some difference, but since we don't know what all may be involved, it is possible that it doesn't matter and that any string that can keep the tension in the typical range will do. 

There's too many things I just don't know about all this to say for sure as to what will work or what would work best.  Since an instrument really only plays in once, and I own one acoustic violin, I won't have enough of a test sample to feel comfortable going too far on drawing conclusions.

So I guess the "answer" is..

dunno

LOL

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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DanielB
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January 11, 2013 - 10:25 am
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Ok, time to dig his back up.  Since the last test recording, the has had over 500 hours more time with the device on it.  I feel there have been some changes, but not as much difference as he first 100 or so hrs made.  But we'll put up the test recording and see what the traces show.

I have to say that I feel the strings are definitely a bit beat up and going dead at this point.  I have a new set on the way that should be in any day now.  But for the test recording, trying to keep the parameters as consistent as possible, here's the sound sample for denny!

 

 

I also recorded a quick take of playing a bit of an actual song, since maybe some folks are like me and find it easier to hear what an instrument sounds like from an actual bit of playing as opposed to test tones.  Not my best playing, but it never is when the "record" light goes on. 

 

 

I like the way she's sounding.  I think her alto voice has been developing nicely, though her soprano voice is still feeling a bit tight.strained/forced to me.  however you would say that in violin terminology.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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coolpinkone
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January 11, 2013 - 1:38 pm
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Hey Daniel. Hoffy sounds good. I myself had a moment of wishing I was on a screened porch with my hound dog and some southern honey cakes! Good job!

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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DanielB
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January 11, 2013 - 2:43 pm
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Have to have some sweet tea with that or chicory coffee.  LOL

 

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Steve
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January 11, 2013 - 11:07 pm
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Thanks, Daniel, for the sound update for Dennis to analyze. I have been fascinated with this particular topic once I discovered it. And thanks to Dennis for talking about his sound analysis and presenting details about it. I am attempting to get my own Audacity sound analysis setup going, with Dennis' valuable help. I can presently analyze recordings, but haven't figured out yet how to connect a mic to my WinXP laptop and do proper recording using Audacity. So far I've tried several different electret (condenser) mics and they all do the same thing--the first few seconds are fine then the recording becomes very distorted from then on, sort of a very metallic "flanging" sort of sound. I haven't tried a different laptop yet, but was hoping to run Audacity from a single laptop and do both recording and later analysis using it. But eventually I hope to get it figured out!

(I own one of those ToneRite gadgets, for violin, after first hearing and reading about it some months ago. I wish I'd heard of this Fiddlerman site back then, and especially this thread, and other comments by Dennis about his sound analysis. I'm not sure if the violin will eventually go back to its previous non-excited state after a period of time, if the ToneRite is taken off and not used after a period of using it. But I have other violins that haven't been "ToneRite"d so once I master the recording angle then I'll start trying to do some before/after sound analysis tests on one or more of those.)

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DanielB
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January 12, 2013 - 4:04 am
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Thanks for having an interest, Steve!

Hmm.  Using windows XP and a condenser mic, I would check your sound input options for windows and make sure nothing is check to automatically adjust the levels.  The metallic flanging sound you are describing might be digital distortion?

If it has happened with different mics, that would be my first thought of things to check.  

Cool that you own one of the commercial ToneRite gadgets.  Do you feel they work well?  I wouldn't claim that my rig duplicates what they do, though the principle is at least similar in some ways.  No standard of comparison though, so the commercial units may be a bit more effective or produce a bit of a different effect, for all I know.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Steve
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January 12, 2013 - 7:42 pm
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Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the info and it never occurred to me to check the laptop sound card settings--I was trying to just change Audacity settings, which didn't do a thing to help.

On the ToneRite I can't say I've noticed any difference from using it. I just went with the good reviews I read about it and got one based on that, figuring it couldn't hurt and might even improve things. I put it on my best violin, and have been leaving it on when it's not being played. But that was before I heard about Dennis' sound analysis work and once I get the recording problem solved then I'll try some before/after tests using the ToneRite. I have the latest version which has the "volume control". That just turns down the amount of vibration from the gadget, and can be set between very low to max. I just leave it set to max. If the device weren't so expensive I'd tear it apart just to look inside, but it's totally sealed with the rubber coating and would probably be completely ruined by trying to tear it apart.  There doesn't appear to be much to it, just the small vibrating unit plus the bridge attachment--it's hard to see how it can be worth $200 (violin version). Only the part that attaches to the bridge changes it from one used on a guitar or violin or viola, etc. The violin version has fingers that fit over the bridge and between the strings and the unit sits vertically on the bridge with the unit's weight holding it in place. The violin doesn't make much sound, if the unit fits securely on the bridge, but you can feel the vibrations with your finger on the instrument. I leave the shoulder rest in place to hold the violin off the table, so the scroll and shoulder rest keep the rest of the violin off the table. It would seem your own DIY device applies a lot more energy to your violin if you're able to hear the music you're playing into it. Mine isn't anywhere near as loud, in fact is mostly just a quiet 60 cycle hum in the background. I liken the gadget more to something like a common hair clipper you can buy that has an attachment that fits onto the bridge. Of course the actual shape of the ToneRite is much smaller than a hair clipper, but it's probably a similar type of thing. But I haven't looked up the patent, so perhaps it's not quite the way I imagine it. There are probably harmonics of the 60 cycles being generated too but I don't know that for sure. Perhaps I can try to capture the sound with the ToneRite in place on a violin, and do an analysis once I get the recording problems solved. (I never married, and being retired, even though now on a fixed income, I have always tended to indulge my hobbies, and comparing violins (which usually means buying them) and other related gadgets and accessories has been a hobby ever since I first began taking lessons 20 years ago, even though I'm now just coming back to playing again 6 months ago. But I did resist buying a ToneRite when I first heard about it, though eventually I now own one. And now that I am learning about the sound analysis that Dennis does, eventually I hope to be able to have some concrete results on how much if any the ToneRite does to help a violin. I do suspect, though, that the most benefit, if any, would come to a brand new instrument, or perhaps to one that had the top off for major repairs. Yet, some very influential folks have given good marks to the ToneRite--Schoenberg Guitars favorable comments was what really caught my eye when I first read about it. So when I eventually get some results, I'll post them. One of my current violins has had very little playing from what I understand (bought used from someone who wanted to learn violin then never pursued it), and I haven't played it much nor has the ToneRite been used on it, so I'll probably choose that one to start the experiment, remembering to do an initial sound recording on it before the ToneRite is used.)

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Steve
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January 12, 2013 - 8:08 pm
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I just checked my laptop sound card levels box and don't see anything that automatically sets levels or that can be disabled--just manual slider boxes for input levels (several different boxes). But then I opened Audacity and noticed that the same Audacity input level control slider is automatically linked to the sound card slider boxes, so I was already reducing input levels when I had it turned down low and was still getting what is most likely heavy distortion from overloading that Daniel commented on from my symptoms. So I'll have to look elsewhere. I was spending time reading old Forum posts again today and got back to one a year or two ago that asked about mics to use, with several mentioned in the $50-60 range, usb type mics. Trying one of those is sounding better and better. (Dennis has said I need to use an acoustic mic, not a piezo mic, for best true-violin sound pickup for doing sound analysis.)

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DanielB
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January 13, 2013 - 8:29 am
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I thought of one other thing you can check, Steve.  If your soundcard options are set up so that you can hear what you are recording through the computer, like if you would hear it on headphones if you tapped the mic.. Then you could have some playback sounds from the track you are recording mixing with the recorded signal. That could result in weird flanger type sounds, since there would be a very slight (milliseconds) lag. 

I haven't kept up with windows, so I'm not sure what the sliders are called for that.  Probably mix or master, but if those were set to record is what I'm talking about.  The only record slider that should be up when trying to record an instrument would be the mic in or line in, depending on what inputs your machine has and what one you are plugging in to.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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