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Sound Post Story
Topic Rating: 0Topic Rating: 0Topic Rating: 0Topic Rating: 0Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
pky
Honorary tenured advisor
February 18, 2012 - 12:45 pm
Member Since: July 6, 2011
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@Fiddlestix: Yes, size and ceilin height do have an effect of your instrument. Basically is how much sound bounces back from the wall. When I was in college learning Chinese zither, there was a popular practice room -- because it sounds the best, no matter how bad you play:P

Even in my bed room now it sounds the best when I play in front of the mirror where the room is smaller than when i play by my bed where the room is wider.

 

So, when comparing two or more violins, one should play in the same room, same spot, and same bow, and even same person, same piece, (not to mention same force and same techniques) to avoid the environmental factors/variables.

Oliver
NC
King
February 18, 2012 - 1:01 pm
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Well OK.  Now that I have the benefit of an educated audience I must try an experiment.  I will compare 2 violins.  One is my 20 mm sound post relocation and the second is a standard sound post position.

I have to explain that both violins sounded very much the same even though different instruments.  I believe that both acquired their "bad" sound after being in NC for 2 years after 5 years or so in CT.  But I don't want to give any more background right now.

So, here is a recording.  There are 2 violins and I'm just playing the 4 open strings on each violin. 

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When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
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February 18, 2012 - 1:18 pm
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Hard for me to tell a difference. Thanks for the post thumbs-up

"The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least."
Oliver
NC
King
February 18, 2012 - 2:43 pm
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Well, if I can't prove my prejudices with regular recording equipment then I have to upgrade.  So here is a sound post comparison using a good condenser mic with tube preamp. 

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When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
Gail
29 Palms, CA
Honorary advisor
February 18, 2012 - 3:18 pm
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Big difference.  The first sounds a bit brighter to me.  The second sounds muted.

I've learned so much from my mistakes that I've decided to make some more.
TerryT
Coleshill, Warwickshire
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February 18, 2012 - 3:34 pm
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I have absolutely no technical idea why but I preferredrd the 2nd.
Could you play Barber's Adagio on both just to make sure?

I was born with nothing, and to my surprise I still have most of it left!
Oliver
NC
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February 18, 2012 - 3:37 pm
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Let me wait for another reply or two and I will then tell which is which.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
gordon_sc
South Carolina
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February 18, 2012 - 5:26 pm
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Oliver based on my "no tone ears" I think the 2nd one sounds better and that was on both recordings.

I am using a older computer with a Soundblaster Live sound card and headphones.

Thanks.done

It ain't gonna learn to play itself.
Oliver
NC
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February 18, 2012 - 6:57 pm
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Well, I might as well reveal the facts.

I think the second violin sounds much better.  It is the one with the 20 mm sound post location.

However, I'm impressed with Gail's observation because the "brighter" is true for #1 but it is not the sound I prefer in a violin and is, in fact, the reason I began moving sound posts in the first place.

The difference is really obvious in comparing  "A" and "E" strings.  The second violin is much more able to "speak" on those strings now.

I believe that the dramatic move of the sound post away from the treble foot has reduced the high(er) violin frequencies and given the violin a nice mellow sound. 
But the move did NOT reduce the volume (which seems strange to me?)

coffee2

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
CatMcCall
Newport, Oregon
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February 18, 2012 - 7:26 pm
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You've obviously hit upon the ideal location for the sound post, Oliver. Congrats! If it sounds good to you, then it's Right, no matter what the Experts deem the "proper" sound post location.

Mary in South Beach, Oregon http://www.thefiddleproject.blogspot.com
Oliver
NC
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February 18, 2012 - 8:02 pm
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Well, I know what happened here and I feel that my violin was "saved".  The fact is that I bought an electric in the meantime with the intention of not even using any acoustics due to sound quality problems. Maybe I could sell them. I would rather have a root canal than deal with another luthier so that door was also closed.

I have to wonder how many others might be just tolerating their violin sound when some simple fix might be available.  In all fairness, I can appreciate that the hunt for a good sound post location can be time consuming and nerve racking and a luthier might not find that very profitable.

I've heard plenty of good fiddles too so I guess they are out there and it's best to be very careful in buying any violin.

coffee2

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
CatMcCall
Newport, Oregon
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February 18, 2012 - 8:07 pm
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The Luthiers would prefer that mere mortals don't mess with the inside (or outside except with a dry, lint-free cloth smile) because they're annoyed with fixing novice "mistakes" – I see it all the time on the forums. Bullocks, really! It ain't Rocket Science, they just want us to think it is and that's why there is precious little information out there aimed at the beginner. Be brave – a sound post can be stood back up, another bridge can be carved, any number of repairs and adjustments can be done by any player with a bit of patience and Common Sense, as you have proved to us all dancinbunny I do love that dancing bunny!

Mary in South Beach, Oregon http://www.thefiddleproject.blogspot.com
cdennyb
northern California
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February 18, 2012 - 11:21 pm
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I agree with CatMcCall on the mystery surrounding the inside and outside. I also agree it ain't rocket science but is an acoustical science. You don't necessarily have to graduate from it in order to mess around with it to some degree and obtain the results you want, they just might take longer than you figured.

Now, Mr Oliver… I had a hand whittled soundpost of 51.17mm in length inside that old violin I restored in the previous posting of mine. I chose to make a new one from a very cylindrical, very straight grained dowel of spruce and since the original was so very tight, I chose to make it 51.13mm in length and it fit 'easier' and I was able to more easily position it where I wanted. It stays in without string tension and it sounded MUCH brighter and had a noticeable more volume for the amount of effort I put into playing it.

I suspect all of these things and more have an impact on your project as well. Just the thoughts of an acoustical beginner who has an engineering degree. 

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein
pky
Honorary tenured advisor
February 18, 2012 - 11:40 pm
Member Since: July 6, 2011
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I can't access to either file:(

Mad_Wed
Russia, Tatarstan rep. Kazan city
King
February 19, 2012 - 5:26 am
Member Since: October 7, 2011
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I liked the 1st violin in 22nd post, and 2nd in 24th post duncecap… Did i choose the different violins?duncecap

Oliver
NC
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February 19, 2012 - 8:50 am
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@MAD   Yes, you did choose different violins but the earlier post was recorded with a lower quality microphone.  The second post was closer to real life.

@cdennyb   I had just about the same experience here with a shorter sound post.  I did not suspect that the sound would improve (it did) but I wanted to be sure not to cause any plate cracking later on.

coffee2

I also had the sound volume increase.  Quite a bit.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
Kevin M.
Nicholson, Pa
Pro advisor
February 19, 2012 - 10:33 am
Member Since: September 10, 2011
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cdennyb,

many times the E string is muted and it is only because the soundpost is too tight so you making the post shorter was exactly what you needed to do.

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