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I do not post much (anywhere) but I feel I should here. I think your level of expertise with any instrument depends on your goal, really. If you diligently practice hoping to reach that mythical 5000+ hours of play to become a "master" then you have a definitive finish line. Play until you cross the time boundary. However...
What about theory, music composition, practical musical reading, styles, interpretation, hold/posture, piece maintenance, instrument upkeep, public, private, and orchestral play?
See my point? Technically speaking, if you follow the ABRSM system, you advance from beginner skill levels through master level of play. Not all people WAN'T that depth for a number of legitimate reasons.
There are many musicians who play by ear, read different forms of musical notation, and play extraordinarilly well...knowing only the basics of what I've listed. Does that make them less of a player? In the ear of the audience, do they care if you play with a fiddle hold on your chest or the rest under your chin? No. The audience really has more interest in the unusual and unique. If you can play a piece, then rate yourself on that piece. Or better yet, let the listeners rate you. We often are harsh on ourselves as musicians...more so then needed.
If you can play Paganini: Caprice No. 5 without much difficulty, but have a hard time with Catharsis on a fiddle, does that make you less of a player? No.
Don't be so quick to fall under a label that psychologically will limit your attempts at harder pieces of music. Every thing you do at any level has difficulties to some degree until you practice it, with extremely few exceptions.
I always judge my level/ability by how much fun I'm having and watching the faces of my listeners when I play. 
*** edit : Confidence goes a long way when you're in front of people.
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Brandy said
Don't be so quick to fall under a label that psychologically will limit your attempts at harder pieces of music. Every thing you do at any level has difficulties to some degree until you practice it, with extremely few exceptions.
I always judge my level/ability by how much fun I'm having and watching the faces of my listeners when I play.
You both make good points, Barry and Brandy. After reading Barry's comments, I thought I had overstated my skill level when, in my interview on this site, I said that I thought I was an intermediate beginner.
I think Brandy hit the nail on the head for me, however. The reason why I said that was because I was thinking comparitively to my ability back in February when I held a violin for the first time.
Since I can now play songs that are a bit more complex than Twinkle and sometimes it doesn't sound too awful, I feel like I'm a little bit beyond an absolute beginner. However, I'm sure 10 years from now, I'll look back at my first five years as still in the beginner stage.
Brandy's right that feeling like you're advancing -- even in small increments and even though you're not as good as somebody (maybe everybody) else -- helps motivate you to keep trying.
When the work's all done and the sun's settin' low,
I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow.
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Hmmm..
I guess I don't really think of music that way, maybe.
You're a player from day one. For the first year or so, you can maybe excuse being clumsy enough that any person who isn't a musician can tell you really haven't been playing very long. But you can only hide behind being a "newbie" for so long. When it gets to feeling silly to use that excuse anymore, then you're just a player, a musician.
But you were really always that. Sure, we all always work on getting better at it, but I don't believe in a point called "Mastery" where one is as good as it gets and can get no better. If you're the best that someone can find, I suppose they might think of you that way, but to think of yourself that way? I don't see it. Never really thought about it in terms of having levels or increments.
So I guess I just see it as being a musician/player. You can wear a "Hi, I'm new!" button for a while to explain the unavoidable awkwardness while you're still having to remind yourself which end to pick up the bow by, though.
I'm still in my first year, so I'll keep my noob button a bit longer. LOL
But really? We're all just musicians. If the word feels maybe a little too formal, then "players".
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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I'm a beginner and will always be a beginner... in case you think for a moment that you're better than that... take a listen of one of the masters playing and watch a youtube vid of someone from the early 20-s to 30-s play the old style classical way...
having spent their entire lifetime playing.
Incredible talent and I don't enough years left to even begin to approach that level of mastery. 
I'm having a hard time remembering a 1/2 dozen tunes! 
"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein
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What a complex can o worms when I can play 10 or 20 tunes and the listeners are pleased I'll b a noob till then 3 min of vavoldi is good for me I'm not looking to play full symphonies . I've been working on drunken sailor now for almost a month and the change up from d to g back to b is an unreachable at this time just got to get them left fingers working when I'm home I can get 4 to 6 hrs of practice a day but on the road not as regular but I think FM IS PRETTY GOOD LOL
I have no idea how to classify myself or someone else... Good playing\not good playing\ not so bad \ bad \horrible etc. LOL 
And i don't really want to classify 
I know what i should work on, and slowly-slowly progressing, getting other things to work on... I know that this way leads to something. I'd prefer consider it as a path in the mountains than as a staircase =)
wanabfidler said
... I've been working on drunken sailor now ...
Cool! 
I've just started it either!
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Mad_Wed said
I know that this way leads to something. I'd prefer consider it as a path in the mountains than as a staircase =)
Well said! 
~ Once you've ruled out the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be true. ~
According to this article, I haven't even reached the beginner stage yet, but a lot of other folk's in this forum have. Some have only played a few month's but already are expert's.
I'm not trying to be a smart alec when I say that either. Read the stat's and compare yourself to what they say.
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I think there's major steps you should achieve to consider yourself at certain levels. particularly to pass the novice level.
1: A decent vibrato that you can maintain
2: Being able to pick up any piece of violin music and not be completely overwhelmed
3: Ability to read music to see how its played, not having to hear it by someone else
4: Sliding to other positions without having to sound out the note to correct placement
5: Not sounding choppy or mechanical
These are all things I am working at. I do not expect to be able to do these effortlessly at first. As it as posted, however, with confidence.I do believe when I can do these, I will not consider myself a beginner.
"I find your lack of Fiddle, disturbing" - Darth Vader
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Barry said
I bet if i asked this question on violinist.com Id get some different responses . Think I will and then post the link here to see what we get
EDIT : I just posted the same question, it may take a little time to get responses. Im already prepared for the snooty crowd so its all with a grain of salt.
heres the link:
No posts yet at violinist.com yet.
I gave up going there long ago. Not anywhere as friendly or helpful as here. 
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of 
..... What was I saying???? 
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I call myself a 'player'. Was a bad player, am now a better player, and hopefully I'll become an even better player, maybe even 'good'. I'm not aiming for 'great' player yet but may do one day. 
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of ..... What was I saying????
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Bravo Brandy. I like your response.
In my opinion there are no real steps or signs for advancing to new categories. Imagine playing Twinkle Twinkle so perfect and so uniquely that everyone in the audience drops their jaw in awe......
I've heard people play Paganini Caprices so badly that I can't figure out what they are trying to do and why they are doing it.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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x_Tyberius_x said
I think there's major steps you should achieve to consider yourself at certain levels. particularly to pass the novice level.
1: A decent vibrato that you can maintain
2: Being able to pick up any piece of violin music and not be completely overwhelmed
3: Ability to read music to see how its played, not having to hear it by someone else
4: Sliding to other positions without having to sound out the note to correct placement
5: Not sounding choppy or mechanical
These are all things I am working at. I do not expect to be able to do these effortlessly at first. As it as posted, however, with confidence.I do believe when I can do these, I will not consider myself a beginner.
I would really only agree with number 5.
Have heard many a great fiddler that never use vibrato. Have also heard great music from people that don't read music. And most of the fiddle music I've seen dosen't require you to leave the first position, but is still very demanding to play.
I suppose it depends on whether you are a violinist or a fiddler. One is no more valid than the other, just different.
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of ..... What was I saying????
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Fiddlestix said
According to this article, I haven't even reached the beginner stage yet, but a lot of other folk's in this forum have.
I'm not trying to be a smart alec when I say that either. Read the stat's and compare yourself to what they say.
I agree mate. I'd rather try to play by ear than from the music notation. If you have the 'ear', use it. The piece that I recently video posted, 'Redeemed', I've never been able to even find the 'music' for, yet I can play it.
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of ..... What was I saying????
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Ferret said
I'd rather try to play by ear than from the music notation. If you have the 'ear', use it. The piece that I recently video posted, 'Redeemed', I've never been able to even find the 'music' for, yet I can play it.
That is great, Ferret. I'm happy for you.
I've learned for about 6,7 months now and no sheet music, no reading, no song yet, and I can't play by ear that well.
Someone, please let me borrow a noob button because I don't have one yet. Aha, Daniel, I see you're going to keep yours a bit longer so when you're done I can have it, right?
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It sounds like a "strict" guideline, what I posted, but It is just a goal I set for myself. Is it even reachable? I don't know at this point, but it does give me something to work towards. Some of the goals are easier, but that's my personal benchmark. I do have a problem with my left hand that may prevent me from doing some of the play I wish to, thus preventing me from accomplishing them, but it wont stop me from enjoying the journey at whatever level of play I end up at.
As for the noob button, there was a sale the other day at FM store. I purchased the whole lot for myself. 
"I find your lack of Fiddle, disturbing" - Darth Vader
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x_Tyberius_x said
II do have a problem with my left hand that may prevent me from doing some of the play I wish to, thus preventing me from accomplishing them, but it wont stop me from enjoying the journey at whatever level of play I end up at.As for the noob button, there was a sale the other day at FM store. I purchased the whole lot for myself.
Sorry to hear about your left hand problem. I do admire you with your determination to set sail on your journey. I can empathize with that as both of my hands, arms and shoulders have problems with mobility as a result of surgeries.
I missed out on that sale of those noob buttons though. Would you be kind enough to spare me one?
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Barry said
Good answers so far
"If the word feels maybe a little too formal, then "players". @ Dan... Players means something entirely different these days and neither one of us old farts qualify
play·er [pley-er]
noun
1.
a person or thing that plays.
2.
a person who takes part or is skilled in some game or sport.
3.
a person who plays parts on the stage; an actor.
4.
a performer on a musical instrument.
5.
Informal. a participant, as in a conference or business deal.
Source http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/player at Dictionary.com 
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of ..... What was I saying????
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Did anyone answer your discussion at Violinist.com Barry?
I clicked on it and couldn't see any discussion, just your comment. Might be because I can't log in there.
I was really upset at the administrators at that site because they banned me. When I first started this site I was posting regularly, usually just giving my opinion but occasionally posting links that were relevant to what was being discussed, to fiddlerman.com.
I was banned without any warning and my posts were taken off as well. I sent an email to the admin stating that if my links are not appropriate I wouldn't post them anymore. I didn't as much as receive a reply.
For this reason I would prefer not having links to their site here either. I don't like snobbery and disrespect.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
Fiddlerman said
Did anyone answer your discussion at Violinist.com Barry?I clicked on it and couldn't see any discussion, just your comment. Might be because I can't log in there.
I was really upset at the administrators at that site because they banned me. When I first started this site I was posting regularly, usually just giving my opinion but occasionally posting links that were relevant to what was being discussed, to fiddlerman.com.
I was banned without any warning and my posts were taken off as well. I sent an email to the admin stating that if my links are not appropriate I wouldn't post them anymore. I didn't as much as receive a reply.
For this reason I would prefer not having links to their site here either. I don't like snobbery and disrespect.
Bravo, Pierre.
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