Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

Check out our 2023 Group Christmas Project HERE

AAA
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Old vs New (Violin, that is)
Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
Avatar
Fiddle4Fun

Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 3:39 am
Member Since: January 28, 2012
Forum Posts: 228
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Howdy all!

 

I'm sorry I haven't been around much.  My computer died right before finals so I've been doing most of my Internet browsing from my phone.  I've only been posting when I can get to the library or borrow a computer.

 

Thanks to all y'all who voted for my ad for the CVN-500 contest.  I got the violin in the mail two days ago and have been spending most of my time practicing with it.  Since we seem to frequently revist the question of whether older instruments or newer ones are better, I thought it would be fun to compare the CVN to my Joy and see if anyone can tell the difference (or even has a preference).

 

To start with, here's me playing the open strings on each instrument.  I've made it a blind test so you have to use your ears instead of making a call based on the appearance of the instrument.  I did tune both instruments using the same tuner and played with the same bow and in the same location.

 

 

I'll try to post a second comparison, where I actually play something, tomorrow, er, later today. After sleeping.  I also want to get a little more practice in since the variation between the instruments makes a surprising difference in how well I approximate the right notes. 

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
May 19, 2012 - 4:26 am
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I would guess that the second one is the electric.  The tone of the first sounds more complex to me, and the second a bit more pure, which is what I'm basing my guess on.

Both are nice pleasant sounds, though.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
Joe

Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 5:44 am
Member Since: April 21, 2012
Forum Posts: 595
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I cant tell the difference....dazed

Avatar
Fiddlestix
Michigan, USA

King
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 6:51 am
Member Since: January 21, 2012
Forum Posts: 2647
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I would have to say the first is the new fiddle, but..... dunno

And welcome back,,, been wondering about you.  smile

Avatar
NoirVelours
Quebec

Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 6:59 am
Member Since: March 28, 2012
Forum Posts: 822
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My guess is: old violin is second one because the sound is softer!

"It can sing like a bird, it can cry like a human being, it can be very angry, it can be all that humans are" Maxim Vengerov

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
May 19, 2012 - 7:15 am
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Duh.  For some reason I was thinking a CVN-500 was an electric.  LOL

I'll still stick with my guess that the first sound was the older instrument though.  Probably wrong, but oh well.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
Oliver
NC

King
Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 8:36 am
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I like the second violin but do they both have the same strings ?

"right notes" ......  yeah, it is easier to play a good violin than a poor violin.

violin-student

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
cdennyb
King for a Day, Peasant for many
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 9:46 am
Member Since: February 13, 2012
Forum Posts: 1817
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

OLD-vs-NEW-RECORDING-ANALYSIS.jpgImage Enlargerthe first one has a trace most closely mirroring the CVN 500 recordings I have analyzed but the second is very similiar. The 1st shows a brighter low frequency response and the second shows a higher P & V indicator. 

My guess-tamation is:

New=1st violin (The CVN 500) playing

Old=2nd one

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

Avatar
Kevin M.
Nicholson, Pa
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 11:10 am
Member Since: September 10, 2011
Forum Posts: 1973
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I like the first one best.

Avatar
Soguns Black Violin
Oslo - Norway

Member
Members
May 19, 2012 - 11:26 am
Member Since: May 16, 2012
Forum Posts: 43
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I'll say the 1st one is the old one, since the sound is completely open, propably Germany's violin isn't it facepalm.... that kind of sound on G string I heard so many time with Germany's violin ( just guest.. mb I'm wrong facepalm )... And 2nd one is CVN 500 new violin... since the sound is warm, but It's not open at all => new violin...

Violin - My Life - My Style - My love

Avatar
cdennyb
King for a Day, Peasant for many
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 3:33 pm
Member Since: February 13, 2012
Forum Posts: 1817
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

After doing the analysis, I'm actually shocked that if there's a recording there of a CVN 500 it certainly doesn't look like the one I did before. dunno

If I were to get one, I'd hope it had a much smoother sound trace than either one shown by your recordings.laugh

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

Avatar
NoirVelours
Quebec

Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 4:11 pm
Member Since: March 28, 2012
Forum Posts: 822
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Dennis, can it be that the analysis is influenced by the quality of the recording? Or even quality of bowing!

"It can sing like a bird, it can cry like a human being, it can be very angry, it can be all that humans are" Maxim Vengerov

Avatar
Mad_Wed
Russia, Tatarstan rep. Kazan city
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 6:40 pm
Member Since: October 7, 2011
Forum Posts: 2849
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I liked the second one. Have no idea is it old or new..dunno

Avatar
myguitarnow
Laguna Beach

Pro advisor
Members

Regulars
May 19, 2012 - 8:11 pm
Member Since: June 16, 2011
Forum Posts: 1094
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I couldn't tell the difference. The first had some background noise like a train or something going on in the background. The second time through it didn't. I sure couldn't tell the difference. Do they both have the same strings? I kind of liked the first one better but really too hard to tell be cause of the recording background noise on the first.

Avatar
Fiddle4Fun

Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 20, 2012 - 2:13 am
Member Since: January 28, 2012
Forum Posts: 228
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Howdy, all!  I’m glad to be back. 

 

Hah, about an even split between old and new for the first clip.  Statistically we’re pretty much at chance. laugh

 

In the video, the first clip belonged to the CVN-500 and the second to my old violin.  The old violin has Dominant strings, which are probably about ready to be replaced as they are about eight years old, and the CVN has the Cecilio stock strings (I think that’s what they are). 

 

Here’s a second comparison where I am actually attempting to play something other than the open strings.  I’ve labelled the instruments this time, though.  The CVN-500 is a bit of a challenge to play because it has a thinner, narrower neck than what I am used to. (The old violin has an unusually thick neck and also a wider fingerboard.)  Not only is my usual finger spacing off but I am also hitting multiple strings with my fingers since I am accustomed to having a bit more room to place them!  So, in short, this isn’t exactly pretty.

 

Avatar
Mad_Wed
Russia, Tatarstan rep. Kazan city
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2012 - 6:38 pm
Member Since: October 7, 2011
Forum Posts: 2849
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Ha!

Thanks, F4F! Seems i like the old violins =)

coffee

Avatar
NoirVelours
Quebec

Honorary tenured advisor
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2012 - 6:45 pm
Member Since: March 28, 2012
Forum Posts: 822
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Same here, but the 500 sounds pretty good, imagine it with good strings! But in the first clip I was attracted a lot more to the old violin sound. Is it me or it's harder to heraa  difference in the second clip? They suddenly sound almost the same, maybe less open for the old one but I would not bet on it.

"It can sing like a bird, it can cry like a human being, it can be very angry, it can be all that humans are" Maxim Vengerov

Avatar
Fiddle4Fun

Honorary advisor
Members

Regulars
May 21, 2012 - 6:58 pm
Member Since: January 28, 2012
Forum Posts: 228
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I don't think it's just you, NV.  When I finished putting that video together I was astonished at how hard it was to hear a difference.  I recorded the songs at the same time as the open strings too.  I might have to try a third comparison that includes the E string to see what it's like.

Avatar
cdennyb
King for a Day, Peasant for many
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2012 - 1:11 am
Member Since: February 13, 2012
Forum Posts: 1817
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

So, my sound analysis was dead on. It's interesting that the recording produced that wavy of a trace. The other CVN 500 was very smooth, almost too smooth for a production Chinese violin. Perhaps the other one was made by a more competent luthier or one that wasn't in a hurry to get to his coffee break. lol

The lower projection was a dead give-away for the older violin. Unless they are very expensive and very well played the traces are usually not near as high as a recently made newer model.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

Avatar
cdennyb
King for a Day, Peasant for many
Members

Regulars
May 22, 2012 - 1:18 am
Member Since: February 13, 2012
Forum Posts: 1817
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

NoirVelours said
Dennis, can it be that the analysis is influenced by the quality of the recording? Or even quality of bowing!

I have done analysis using both cheap $10 chinese bows and $60 CF bows on the same instrument to test that option and found virtually no change in the trace path. In fact, just playing the open strings one time without any other notes produces a trace about 75%+ as good as a full song or series of notes played and recorded. I usually only record a max of 4 minutes but honestly I can get a real accurate trace from a 1/2 minute. It helps a lot to play as many notes from the lowest to the highest so the analysis software has lots of data points to analysis and compare. The best I've found in general is playing scales from the G all the way to high B on the E string, one note at a time and as fast as you're comfortable playing them.

I have done microphone recordings and straight digital loading of the tune into the software from a player and found neither to be any better. I suspect the quality of the microphone may have a slight impact on the quality of the analysis but I don't have a cheap mic to use in the test.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 138
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Sofia Leo, TKDennis, FiddleDetroit, CookiesViolin, JPferrman, Designer 88, LyleA, Stephen, Dorque, Trisha, Elaisa, wonderputz, Gordon Shumway, dougga, Russionleo, JohnG
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 7761
ABitRusty: 3915
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2690
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
Gordon Shumway: 2425
DanielB: 2379
Mark: 2149
damfino: 2113
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31662
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 81
Topics: 10590
Posts: 134223
Newest Members:
SoCal335, Jan Howard, edwardcheng, Oscar Stern, bryanhanson, bittruster, fiddlecastro, jackdaniel, romanmills08, creativestringsinfo
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16429, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3744, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 5309