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I spent the good part of 30 minutes here on this thread. Nice work Daniel, Dens, Kevin and the gang. I confess that I got lost when we were talking tail length, then tailgut was mentioned? I gave up. Then I read that many had not finished so out of determination I went back..(no disclosure on the results of that lol)... .. I learned a thing or two, and learning each day makes me feel great!!!!!... but I won't be messing with any bridges, tails, strings, guts...yadda yadda You all are good sports! Great thread. Keep the info coming..... in my case you might have to write it on a 2 x 4 and smack me upside the head.. Remember.... I am still trying to figure out with what to clean my violin, and if I should clean the strings.... But my music reading is coming along nicely. I love the language of note reading. Oh... and what is that other thing I am looking for??Questing for? anyone??
Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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DanielB said
that with fine tuners, 54.5 and 55 mm are not at all meaningful when fine tuners are involved. At least not according to my own experiments.
I agree with you and would like to report an observation about a violin open string/afterlength measurement. I am sure you ran across this before, but this is just in case.
My new violin arrived yesterday (a gift from my very close friend to comfort me for going through hell during the past several years). It is "professionally" set up before sending out (means they got paid for changing strings, etc...) and the first thing I did after open the shipping box wasn't play it, but got out my tape and did some measurements as I was curious about it.
The string opening and afterlength is 327/58 mm. That number set is the same for my two other German made violins, one Czechoslovakia, and one more Czech that I'm trying to resurrect, all are Strad copies.
BTW, this violin is a Guaneri del Gesu copy. It's about 10 mm wider and a bit thicker. I was afraid with bigger internal volume it would react slower but seems to be very responsive; mellow, sweet in lower strings and still bright in higher registers. It's not breaking in yet (maybe another 25-50 years or so...haha) so this is just a observation report.
Best wishes,
Robert

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Glad if you found anything in my posts of some interest, Robert.
The 327/58 mm you measured on your instruments is interesting. That is a few mm longer than the usual "standard". Some sources claim there are some "magic numbers" (for lack of a better term) longer than the usual default 54.5-55 mm that can have what they believe are some desirable tone effects. Nobody seems keen on mentioning specifics, so I'd guess the precise info falls under "tricks of the trade" that some luthiers know.
I didn't have much luck finding any while experimenting with lengths longer that what was necessary to get the harmonic/afterlength pitches to match. But what I was doing amounted to just random longer lengths to see if I got lucky. Tiny differences in the adjustment of the tailgut length make changes, and I really didn't expect to find anything great that way. But as long as I was messing with it anyway, I felt it was worth a couple extra hours worth of fussing, because hey.. Ya never know. LOL
What kind of tailpieces do you have on your assorted violins? Fine tuners?
(Warning/Disclaimer: What follows is unsupported personal opinion, based on what I have seen in other stringed instruments and as such assume will be similar for violins. So anyone wanting to know where these numbers and times are from, you now have all the answer to that question that I have.)
On the topic of playing in, yeah, it might take 25-50 years for the instrument to be at it's "mature" sound. LOL But the most critical time of playing in, when most of the settling and "opening" of the tone happens seems to be somewhere around the first 100 hours of actual play. Sometimes a bit more and sometimes a bit less, since they are made of wood and no two pieces of wood are actually identical in tone qualities.
How long it will actually take in practice depends of course on how much a person plays each day, on the average. If a person actually plays an hour a day (their practice sessions may be longer than that, if they spend part of the time watching tutorials and such, but we are talking only the actual amount of time when the strings and instrument are making music), it can take close to four months. Two hours a day, closer to two months, and at fifteen minutes a day it could take well over a year.
If the wood the instrument was made from wasn't aged a few years before the instrument was built, it can take even longer, since the resins in it won't have fully hardened and the wood will still be unstable.
But most of the big changes will be in that first (approximate) hundred hours, and the later changes that happen over years tend to be much less drastic and more subtle.
Again, that is just my opinion on the matter from what I have seen in other stringed instruments over the years, and what I have seen of the theories relating to the "settling" or "playing in" effect.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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The afterlength on my Mendini MV400 is close to 41 mm. I have not changed that from the way I received it new. I was intending to bring it to 54.5 or so, but I found that the tailgut is too long. Using the adjusting screws on the (threaded nylon) tailgut, I can only shorten the afterlength by something like 6 mm. After reading your post, Daniel, I don't think I want to change it. The setup of this fiddle seems generally pretty bad, but who knows whether they actually knew something when they set the afterlength? It is probably past my understanding to expect to make it better, at least until I can give it more attention.

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@RosinedUp, if you like your violin sound then don't change it. I was just messing around with mine. My friends upon seeing my tinkering with my violin always told me that don't fix it if it's not broken yet. My reply was "that is exactly what I'm doing. Break it first so I can try to fix it". I did some wild and crazy things to one of my violin that a luthier would say it's very nasty. I gave it a shower, complete with shampoo (being a cheap one, maybe that what was wrong), a bath towel and hair dryer. It's now alive but not kicking at all......haha.
@DanielB, thank you your your quick reply and detailed explanation. I did not have to read the disclaimer as everything making perfect sense to me, not this only post but your other posts that I've enjoyed reading as well.
Thank you for such detailed explanation. I did lot of researches on the net but none was such informative and thorough, as in your post about wood aging effect on sound characteristic. Thank you for passing down your knowledge as I was just in violin learning for a few months.
Yes, all of my violin have Witner tailpiece with built-in fine tuners (aluminium, I think).
Back to the afterlength being a bit longer, this is my opinion (do I need to post a disclaimer first?..haha) after reading lot of resources. I need to learn your sound analysis when I have some spare time to make better judgement, as right now it's just speculation.
We do agree that the opening string is about 327 mm (could be up to 330 mm). So the 1/6 after length, which amounts to 54.5-55.5 mm (established 300+ years ago by Jacob Stainer (from some net resources) that Amati then Stradivari and Guarneri did not bother to alter, to obtain two octaves and a fifth comparing to its opening string pitch, was based on homogenic marterial, ie gut strings
We also know that adding mass to the bridge increases it damping factor, reducing volume and some sound frequencies (as in case of using a practice mute, on the bridge or close to it, and in reverse situation as removing wood material, thinning out bridge).
Now we could compare our modern string with the gut string using years ago. First, there are brass/nickel (?) ball end type (I use it), and then secondly there is silk wrap around string end/the one attaches to tailpiece (for adding damping of unwanted frequencies, as a manufacture design element) which make it no longer homogenic. As a side note, string brands and even models experience different charisteristics as afterlength pitch concerned due to its materials, being various type of synthetic and/or metal compositions.
So there are a couple more damping elements added to the "standard" measurement. Would a counter balance adjustment by moving those weight/damping factor southward reasonable, and make it better? (away from the bridge, which means increasing its afterlength from the standard). Could the measurement now be different for various string material types, ie. a few mm apart?
I think it is for now without any sound analysis (or when I gain more knowledge of the subject...which would probably take years).
Again, this is my observation/opinion. It could be totally wrong...haha...there is my disclaimer DanielB, finally. I would love to learn so shred me some lights, someone, please.
Best wishes to you all,
Robert

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DanielB said
I have seen in other stringed instruments over the years, and what I have seen of the theories relating to the "settling" or "playing in" effect.
I have some question for you about an Czech violin I've just resurrected. It's about 50-60 yrs, got broken tuning pegs and end pin, missing bridge, separated glue seam at various top and bottom plate areas, countless scratches all over, and a so bad smell that I could not stand when holding it close enough (maybe due to mold growing inside?). It has not been played for years and ugly looking.
This is the one that I gave a shower (not because of the smell, I treated it with some chemical and it seems fine now, along with some vanish retouching to make it more presentable, albeit not very good job), but due to that the end pin won't fit well, so the afterlength increase to about 62 mm. It did not sound good when I tested so I made some adjustment and fixed the end pin/tailpiece again to give back the 58 mm, along with Thomastik Vision strings, much better now sounding wise.
How long do you think that my violin will be playing in, considered having new bridge, end pin, tailpiece, along with cheap glue at so many places, and vanish retouching all over?
Thanks for reading and replying.
Robert

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@RosinedUp: I'd say the "#1 rule" from a hypothetical list of rules that actually matter, would be "If you like it, then it is good and doesn't need changed".
My own Mendini.. Well, right out of the box, I actually had to wonder if I could get a better sound from putting the strings on a cardboard box and bowing them. In other words, I wasn't particularly happy with the sound. As I went over learning some of the points of setup, I found things that definitely appeared to be "out' or at least not as right as I felt I could have made them. As those things were adjusted and corrected, the instrument played better and I liked the sound better. Some of the changes I made would have been reversible, if they had been mistakes, and some (like taking the thick paint off the fingerboard and shaping the nut) less so.
To put the bridge in position at what is usually considered the right place? Well, if I didn't like the sound better I could put it back. Not much risk there. When I adjusted the afterlength, I took closeup pics of the adjuster collars on the tailgut so I could put it back if that move ended up being a mistake.
My thought was that the instrument had been made and adjusted by other humans. Maybe they knew something I didn't.. and maybe not. In any case, they would definitely have been trying to make a certain number of instruments a day that were enough like violins to sell. I wanted an instrument to play. My "TLC" factor would definitely be higher. With other stringed instruments like guitars, I have a good track record. I and others usually feel they play/sound better after I work on them. Some friends over the years have brought brand new instruments (not all cheap) before they even try playing them so I can "give it the works". I'll go over it and look for anything that wasn't done quite right, do some assorted things to get a bit better action or sound, that sort of thing. So I have a certain amount of faith in my own abilities and was willing to risk trying some things with my violins.
But if it sounds and plays like you want, messing with it may be too much of a risk. Especially if it is the only violin you have. Might want to get a cheaper one or put in some affordable bids on used "basket case" instruments, if you just want to experiment. I find such work fascinating and enjoyable, but maybe most people don't. LOL
@ratvn: Hard to say how long that may take so settle after such work. Too many parameters. But if the varnish was retouching, rather than actually something that could soak into bare wood, then the plates should have kept most of any "playing in" effect they got over the years. Water and shampoo may not be great for wood, but I actually think that what is affected the most by "settling" and "playing in" is a factor of flexibility on the top and bottom plates that was gained from them being flexed a certain amount and in certain directions while being played so the wood can react better to the vibrations of sound when playing. That is theory, mind you. Also a piece of wood that is washed, unless maybe it was left to soak, the rosin content and hardness may not be affected so much as one might think.
"Cheap glue"? Well, hide glue *is* a cheap glue, and it is the standard. In fact, it isn't even actually a great glue, so far as we'd usually think of glue for other things. It can break pretty easy. That can be good, because seams like you spoke of, the glue will let go before the wood is damaged. That is one of the reasons it is used in some musical instruments. Other glues might not, or they may dampen vibrations differently, which could be either good or bad.
Now, so far as the afterlength tuning being maybe only (or at least more) for gut string. I have never played on gut strings. Not yet anyway, it is definitely on my list of things to try someday in the future. I can't say for certain that synthetic core strings get the same effect from the afterlength being tuned. I can say, however, that it is physically possible to tune the afterlength so that the afterlength of the D string is in tune with the harmonic on the A string as I described, even with fine tuners in place. It definitely makes some changes. From the few instruments I have had to try it on, I noted two effects that I personally felt were desirable from it.
The first is fairly easy to notice. The vibrations through the instrument when playing are stronger. The instrument will "ring" more, in the sense of notes played exciting related notes on other strings, resulting a bit of "sustain" or "echo" when you abruptly stop bowing. That is, from what I understand, a desirable effect in violins, as it is in guitars. It makes note transitions sound a bit smoother and gives a stronger sound.
The second is more subtle. If you bow while sliding your finger that is down on a string up and down the neck very slowly, you may notice that some spots on the neck are a bit louder than others or "sweeter". If you are a tactile sort of person when it comes to instruments, you may even be able to feel those strong spots when you find them. As I messed with the afterlength, I noticed that those spots seemed to move. As I got it close to right, the spots moved to places on the neck where we finger notes, rather than sort of random locations. So I think I had a bit of an "Ah-HA!" moment and perhaps got the understanding that this instrument is a bit more ingenious and complex than it first appears. I find that on the instruments where I tuned the afterlength, I personally can feel if the note is "on" pitch by a tactile difference in the vibration from when I intone the note a bit off.
Now, I can't say that I know for sure if that is what they were trying to do with gut strings. For all I know, gut strings may exhibit different effects if the afterlength is tuned or not. But I did feel the effects were good enough on the acoustic violin I did them on that I felt it was well worth the day or so of fussing it had taken me to muddle through getting the afterlength in tune.
Not so sure everyone would like the effect on electrics, though. On my electric, the stronger vibrations actually caused some problems with parts of the (largely plastic) electric violin vibrating strongly enough to cause buzzing where the back and the internal cross-bracing touched or nearly touched. I ended up having to pad some spots inside with craft foam and later a bit of silicone as a more permanent measure. Then it started shaking some of the screws and nuts loose, so I ended up having to loc-tite those to stop that. It also affected the sound in some ways that some people might not like. On things like a strong bowed 5th on the open G and D strings, it kinda sounds a bit more like a pipe organ to me than any sort of stringed instrument I've ever heard. LOL
That doesn't bother me so much, it is a good strong sound and very usable musically, but for some folks that want an electric violin to sound as much as possible like an acoustic violin, it may not be desirable. I don't worry about it, and I kind of like unusual musical sounds, personally. But I can't say that I am sure everyone would feel it was an improvement in electric violins, at least if they have one similar to mine.
Now, so far as tailpieces, yeah, they certainly should also make some differences. But I have only been messing with violins a few months now and haven't gotten to trying different tailpieces yet.
@Fiddlestix: Interesting! 330mm instead of the usually mentioned 327 or 328.. I wonder why?
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

I know, Dan, 330mm = 13", but on the back of the pack's, it has 328mm or 13".
Here is what's on the back of their violin string pack's.
http://www.daddariobowed.com/b.....iolin.page
Also, if you have the old traditional fine tuner's on the tailpiece, that will affect the afterlength too, because the fine tuner's set more forward of the tailpiece, rather than the tuner's built into the tailpiece itself. Therefore the tailgut would have to be lengthened to get the proper length.

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Fiddlestix said
Also, if you have the old traditional fine tuner's on the tailpiece, that will affect the afterlength too, because the fine tuner's set more forward of the tailpiece, rather than the tuner's built into the tailpiece itself. Therefore the tailgut would have to be lengthened to get the proper length.
Yeah, now that would be logical, and makes perfect sense with the older style fine tuners. But in reality, it is weirder than that. I started by trying setting the tailgut so the place where the string leaves the ball end and would begin free vibration was at 55 mm. And it ended up being way off. After quite a bit of messing around I ended up with an actual string afterlength of something like 43mm.
I think that at least that with that particular style of fine tuner, the metal of the tuner itself vibrates enough to be a part of the resonance picture. Probably not a good part of the picture, if one is after the very best tone. The other problem with them is they do actually change the string length enough when adjusted to fine tune the string that they can throw off the afterlength tuning anyway. So with my electric (which has those), I mostly end up peg tuning anyway. And yes, that does leave me wondering some days why I need fine tuners in the first place.
With my Mendini acoustic, it had one of those black anodized alloy tailpieces with the build in fine tuners and it was much easier to get the afterlength set right. It also didn't lose the afterlength tuning when the fine tuners were adjusted. The Hoffmann has a similar type tailpiece, but made of carbon composite. I haven't set the afterlength on that one yet.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Thank you everyone for your insight and knowledge.
@DanielB: the afterlength that I measured is without traditional tuner as my tailpiece has built in, which won't change it during adjustment. So if you add in any add on tuner then the afterlength would be shorter, by about 10 mm or more.
My violin is more and more mellow and sweet after a couple of days. It's one of my best now, hopefully after a few weeks it will settle down and I will report to you how it will sound (maybe too early to judge its sound quality now).
The other thing I've just found out, I think, is the violin top plate is made from Carpathian spuce, the light and more flexible type.
Best wishes,
Robert

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I don't know as the built in tuners work the same with afterlength as no tuners or not. Sometime I'll get ahold of a nice wood tailpiece as an upgrade for my violin and find out. LOL
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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I am measuring in American measurements and using a converter to European or Canada style measurements. So I am getting 13" for the playing length from where it leaves the nut to where it contacts the bridge. The bridge is about 1/8" thick at this point and then a bit over 2 inches to the tailpiece "nut". I am amazed at how tiny a mm is so if I am off it doesnt take much to correct it.
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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TerryT said
Same here Daniel, I read all your posts but it doesn't stop me having a little joke with you now and again.
I do the same to DennyB, another of my favourites ( even though he doesn't like being inferior to Brits!
Was just browsing some older posts and noticed the above
@TerryT
Ya can't be inferior to Brits
Sorry, you left yourself open for that one
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of ..... What was I saying????

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PF what that measurement doesn't take into account is bridge placement after your strings are in place, the height of the bridge, the curvature of the bridge and the grooves at both the nut and bridge. By making small adjustments to get your bridge's base foot in a great spot over the bass bar (or realignment after string changes), you are changing the string length of all the strings. As you mentioned, a millimeter is a small unit of measure. The slightest bridge motion, change, bridge depth , slots etc will come into play with your 330mm length. I think it best to say, "about" 330mm and start from there. I don't ever remember seeing a calibration label on any measuring device for sale at Wal-Mart, Cosco, or Walgreens declaring it accurate by the National Bureau of Standards. So, unless you are using a laser transit with GPS calibration for both time and wavelength based on decaying isotopes for your measuring device, lets say "About"
"I find your lack of Fiddle, disturbing" - Darth Vader
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