Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

Check out our 2023 Group Christmas Project HERE

AAA
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_Related Related Topics sp_TopicIcon
Hows the balance of your bow?
say what?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (2 votes) 
Tags: squirrel!
Avatar
Oliver
NC

King
Regulars
September 10, 2012 - 9:32 pm
Member Since: February 28, 2011
Forum Posts: 2439
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
21sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

If the bow subject is simplified it is not nearly as interesting.  (How else can a wooden stick be parleyed into a five figure item ?)  Besides, this is the American way. us-4240

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

Avatar
Barry
Members

Regulars
September 10, 2012 - 9:49 pm
Member Since: June 30, 2011
Forum Posts: 2690
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Oliver said
If the bow subject is simplified it is not nearly as interesting.  (How else can a wooden stick be parleyed into a five figure item ?)  Besides, this is the American way. us-4240

actually its the French that make the best and most expensive bows...so its the French way 

france-4196

There is no shame in playing twinkle, youre playing Mozart

Avatar
cdennyb
King for a Day, Peasant for many
Members

Regulars
September 11, 2012 - 2:52 am
Member Since: February 13, 2012
Forum Posts: 1817
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

...and for all you techno types out there... a repost of this fantastic article on bow making for review.

 

Especially read Chapter 12 Strip your Bow (...and it doens't imply stripping the finish or anything so drastic... but it does have an interesting article on the silver winding and its' two fold purpose on the bow.

 

{too bad we don't have a LIBRARY folder for all this cool stuff}

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

Avatar
Picklefish
Merritt Island, Fla

Pro advisor
Members

Regulars
September 11, 2012 - 4:24 am
Member Since: June 25, 2012
Forum Posts: 1281
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Barry said

Oliver said
If the bow subject is simplified it is not nearly as interesting.  (How else can a wooden stick be parleyed into a five figure item ?)  Besides, this is the American way. us-4240

actually its the French that make the best and most expensive bows...so its the French way 

france-4196

 

and I thought it was the germans?

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

Avatar
Picklefish
Merritt Island, Fla

Pro advisor
Members

Regulars
September 11, 2012 - 4:35 am
Member Since: June 25, 2012
Forum Posts: 1281
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Well, the origional intent of the post was to determine if changing the balance point of a cheap bow would give it the bowing characteristics of a more expensive one. Thus, negating the need to spend more money. I was told by my Violin guy that lead is added to professionals bows to balance them out. it only takes a scant gram or so. And no, since I am still learning, I dont know everything, but its fun to learn and share. In fact I learned that the balance point of the bow is important. You should never learn to live with something that can be changed for the better. The store employee who sold me that replacement bow simply sold me a bow. I didnt know at the time what questions to ask or what to look for. Hopefully this thread will help someone else when they are ready to upgrade their bow.jimi-hendrix

 

Oh, and I teach elementary school kids how to hold and begin to play so I dont consider myself this great Violin teacher. Everything I have learned and relearned is because of discussions, blogs and sharing. The greatest joy I have experienced is seeing a childs face when he/ she gets it and begins to make music for the first time ever. priceless.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

Avatar
Fiddlestix
Michigan, USA

King
Members

Regulars
September 11, 2012 - 5:46 am
Member Since: January 21, 2012
Forum Posts: 2647
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Yes, Denny, that's exactly where I got my information with the chart for bow weight and balance and I had read Chapter 12 re: stripping the bow winding's. It said in there that the original addition of the silver winding's was to dampen the shrill sound of the steel E string and that the different length's of winding's was to keep the balance point at approx. 19cm.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
September 11, 2012 - 8:36 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 16430
27sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I didn't know you were teaching young children beginning violin Robert. That is really cool. It's also one thing I have had a hard time with. It's not as easy as many might think.
One must be able to keep these young kids attention and need to be quite creative right?
Can you give any tips as to what works and what doesn't? How to keep them interested?

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
Picklefish
Merritt Island, Fla

Pro advisor
Members

Regulars
September 11, 2012 - 9:53 am
Member Since: June 25, 2012
Forum Posts: 1281
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Its embarassing because I dont feel like Ive achieved a certain level of success yet to feel like a qualified teacher. I volunteer at my sons school with his strings teacher. I also have three private lessons students. One student Ive had nine months now was able to pass over beginner strings into the intermediate class, that felt pretty good. The other two are brand new since last month. I have noticed that some of the kids pay attention really well while others kind of zone out into la la land at times. In the beginning everything they do right is a huge accomplishment so there are alot of big smiles, clapping, high fives and high praise. We start at the beginning and incrementally move forward from there. Sometimes you have to say "I bet you cant do this" other times its "show me how you would this". I am able to meet them on their level though, same height, even voice, lots of encouragement. Once they see they can do it, it gives them confidence to continue. Teaching my son Twinkle Twinkle was a challenge simply because he had difficulty holding the instrument while learning the finger posistions. But he is getting it.jimi-hendrixI feel more like a mentor than anything else.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

Avatar
Fiddlestix
Michigan, USA

King
Members

Regulars
September 11, 2012 - 10:20 am
Member Since: January 21, 2012
Forum Posts: 2647
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Sorry Robert, I misunderstood, I thought you were a full fledged violin teacher, I guess I got that impression from reading your comment's in the shout box.

I think it's great that you are volunteering your time to help the kid's. And you are right about challenging them to a task. ie: I bet you can't........

Great stuff.  I applaud you.   clap

Avatar
Picklefish
Merritt Island, Fla

Pro advisor
Members

Regulars
September 11, 2012 - 11:00 am
Member Since: June 25, 2012
Forum Posts: 1281
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

smiley-face-punchingmoony-2173

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
September 11, 2012 - 1:42 pm
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 16430
31sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

That sounds like sound advice Robert. Thanks

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
cdennyb
King for a Day, Peasant for many
Members

Regulars
September 19, 2012 - 6:33 am
Member Since: February 13, 2012
Forum Posts: 1817
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@ Daniel

If any of us get good enough to really notice a difference in balance points and bow weights and can actually tell a difference in our quality of playing with various bows, we can go to this guy and have one made for us where the frog does NOT move, thus it doesn't upset the balance point in any way no matter the tension of the hair.

Pretty cool site.

http://www.gillesnehr.com/

 

choose the page on the right "INNOVATION" and the pick the top selection called "The Tete Beche" which will show you the bow. Since there's no price tag associated with this bow, I must assume if you have to ask you can't afford it! LOL

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

Avatar
Picklefish
Merritt Island, Fla

Pro advisor
Members

Regulars
September 19, 2012 - 9:28 am
Member Since: June 25, 2012
Forum Posts: 1281
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
33sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

absolutely amazing, what a work of art!

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
September 19, 2012 - 9:46 am
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yeah Denny, I tend to agree that if there's no price given then either "if you have to ask, then you can't afford it" or they just don't actually want to sell it anyway.  And looking at the page of that innovative new bow design, uhh.. I can't make out enough to figure hide nor hair of how it could do what is claimed, so I probably wouldn't want one anyway.  LOL

Logically, it is just physics that moving the frog is going to make some difference.  But thinking of it as a lever and the movement being on the heavy end?  Moving the frog a few mm may only move the balance point a mm or maybe even a fraction of 1 mm.  Such a slight difference that it wouldn't be noticeable under any normal playing circumstances.  Maybe a really good player could tell, but I wouldn't be able to.  So for all practical intents and purposes, I'm good with the idea that it doesn't move it enough to make any important differences. 

It just seemed odd to me that most balance point references seem to refer to distance from the frog when it would seem to me to be more sensible to measure from the tip, which doesn't move rather than the only moveable part on a bow.  That way there is no need to wonder about how to actually make the measurement in the first place.  But what do I know?

dunno

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
Fiddlestix
Michigan, USA

King
Members

Regulars
September 19, 2012 - 11:06 am
Member Since: January 21, 2012
Forum Posts: 2647
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Maybe you guy's didn't read my post, week before last, I checked the balance point's on all 4 of my bow's with the frog in and out and there was no measureable difference in BP.

Daniel,,,, the BP is going to be in the same location regardless of where you measure from, the tip or the frog. It won't move.

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
September 19, 2012 - 12:54 pm
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
36sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

At the risk of boring the dickens out of some members..

Fiddlestix.  Do you honestly think that any time someone does not agree with you 100%, that they simply didn't read what you typed??  Relax.  LOL  amuse

I agree with you 99.9% on the actual point of it not being enough of a change in the balancing point of the bow to likely matter to anyone.

The tenth of a percent that I disagree is that it does change slightly.  Here we have a bow (most of one anyway) hanging from a thread with a yardstick to measure the difference when the frog is at both extremes.

100_0309.JPGImage Enlarger100_0310.JPGImage Enlarger

 

That is not much of a change.  About 2 inches of tilt.  The thread only needed to be moved not even an entire 1 mm to bring it back to the same equilibrium between the frog being at minimum and maximum adjustment.

So there is a difference.  But it is very small.  Considering that the difference between a loose bow and a taut bow can be less than one turn of the adjustment screw, it probably isn't even moving the frog more than a mm or 2.  So the actual balancing spot of the stick would be changing by only a tiny amount, some small fraction of 1 mm.

That is a difference that is so slight that I rather doubt that even most professionals would notice it.  I'd have to see it to believe it.  It would be considerably less than the difference adding or subtracting less than even 1/10th of a gram from the tip would make.  

The only instance I can think of where it might be even slightly noticeable would be if a bow with hair that was very stretched out was re-haired.  The frog might be a few mm different than it was before the re-hair (though the overall balance point would not move enough to notice when playing even then).  Far more likely that they would notice the slight change in distance from the frog to the leather wrap.

So, considering that approximately 19 cm is what the one authority considered optimal, I doubt anyone would decide to buy or not buy a bow if it is a mm or 2 away from 19 cm.  It would be close enough. 

So I agree 99.9% with you.  Which in my book is close enough to call 100% for any practical playing purposes.

thumbs-up

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online: Jim Dunleavy
Guest(s) 93
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Shell, Squiryl, Schaick, GlassTownCur, mcassidy2004, Reptile Smile, MyMing, CarolineNH, JamesRSmithJr, SethroTull86
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 7830
ABitRusty: 3922
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2690
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
Gordon Shumway: 2435
DanielB: 2379
Mark: 2155
damfino: 2113
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31673
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 82
Topics: 10606
Posts: 134398
Newest Members:
alicedcoz258, Dres pirate, tonyluo, Terrence Terry Ruddy, andrea924breaux, pybring, stive4545, kevin498, Fiddlerjones, FidgetFrog
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16430, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3744, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 5361