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Violin "In-The-White" Project
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DanielB
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August 23, 2013 - 11:46 am
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Well, it has been a while. 

Most of what I consider the major "corrective work and quality issues" are finished enough now, though.

Plates and ribs "graduated".  (Since they didn't seem to have been graduated in the first place and were pretty much all even thickness, I don't think it qualifies as "re-graduation".)

Neck was removed, shaved just slightly to bring it exactly straight with the endpin hole and the line of the top plate halves.

Bass bar smoothed and somewhat shaped.  Like the plates and ribs, I left it a bit on the thick side, so it can be fine-tuned in a year or two, if I decide it needs it.

Whatever kind of cold glue they used, it was removed and replaced with hot hide glue (bunny back) that was actually applied neatly and properly "filleted".

Dyed hardwood has been replaced with ebony.  The only part on it that you'll see in the little vid is the tailpiece saddle.  But I have an ebony fingerboard that I've at least "pre-shaped" and an ebony nut waiting to go on (unless I decide to go for bone or horn for the nut).

The instrument had some months in the sun to "tan" a bit (you can see the light area on the top where the original fingerboard's shadow was, and get an idea how much the wood has coloured up from sunlight).

The texture of the grain of the top has raised over the course of the summer, maybe a reaction to sunlight or humidity changes, I don't know.  But it is a definite "corduroy", and I am not going to attempt to smooth that out before finishing.

Not stain or colouring agents are planned.  Definitely no traditional "ground" or "quality artist oil colours".  The oil varnishes I've been experimenting with have some colour due to resins and other ingredients, but I expect any colour effect they add will be fairly slight, since coats will be thin and not too many of them.  This is going to be a somewhat unusual looking instrument, being "blonde" or very nearly so.

The occasion for this video is that she is all back together and, within my limited knowledge of "proper", everything is straight, clean, tidy, and no ugliness or drips in the gluing.  No iffy "dyed hardwood", what there is of her so far, is as it should it should be (within my understanding of violins/fiddles and musical instruments in general).

I am pleased with how the look of the wood has developed with some time and sunlight, and pleased that I got her all back together neat and tidy.  So far, I don't feel I've botched the job.  If she ends up a clock or decoration, she'll at least be a rather nice looking one.  LOL

Her sealer/"protein insulation" layer went on a few days ago and she's ready for the last little bits of detail before I start the varnish, and I was just pleased with how it is coming along and how the wood looks.  So I took her out in the sunlight to shoot a little quick video and show it off a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....e=youtu.be

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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ozmous

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August 23, 2013 - 1:07 pm
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this is brill! can't wait for more updates!!!

cheers! - ⁰ℨ

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RosinedUp

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Awesome project, Daniel!

It's little terse to just say that you graduated it though, ha ha.  That in itself takes a lot of learning and planning and doing.  I hope at some point you can say some more about that and the bass bar.

It'll be exciting to hear it when you're done, and to know whether you think it's better than your present instrument.  I have a feeling it's going to sound at least pretty good.

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DanielB
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August 23, 2013 - 5:34 pm
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@RU: Yeah, I don't want to go into too much detail on points like the graduating, at least on the forum.  Firstly, the details would be overly technical for the interest and attention span of most members.  Secondly, authorities vary considerably on their views of how thick what part should be and what contours are involved.  I feel it would be too likely to lead to pointless debate, depending on what authority someone prefers to quote.  With the amount of time and handwork it took to get it done. I'm not up for hearing how someone else thinks I should have done it.  LOL

Points that might be of minor interest to some, though.. There is a reason that luthiers use small planes to do a lot of the work.  Using just scrapers takes quite a while.  I did not use power tools or sandpaper.  Thinning the wood was all done with home-made scrapers and final smoothing of the inside was done by burnishing with a piece of polished agate.

The liners were rough and had been glued in with whatever opaque glue (I'm assuming a cold hide glue) was used for the rest of the instrument.  Initially I was going to just smooth them and leave them alone.  But them being an unknown glue and wood bothered me.  So I ended up back-tracking and tried to remove them to clean them up and re-glue.  However, the amount of cussing and swearing involved in getting them loose without damaging the ribs and the shape they were in after that.. I just made new liners.  I had seen somewhere that willow was a good wood for liners, and I had some willow branches I was given several years ago.  While that was a bit of work, I have to say that I think it was *less* work than it would have been to try to get the factory made liners to be even and smooth.  But I wanted glue I was sure of.  It was one of several places where I ended up going back to re-do something I was originally going to leave alone as "good enough". 

Another place was the neck.  Originally I was going to leave it, since it was only a little over 1 mm off from perfectly straight.  But as long as I had the instrument apart anyway, it just made sense at the time to take an extra evening to get it straight to within the thickness of an E string. 

If anyone is thinking that you actually save money with an "in the white" project, you certainly won't if you figure in your labour at even minimum wage.   I haven't been logging hours (since I really don't want to know LOL), but this has been an hour or two's work here and there over quite a lot of evenings.  And it's not done yet. 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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August 23, 2013 - 7:09 pm
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It looks nice so far. Is the purfling wood or fiber?

As for the graduations, I think there are almost as many different graduations as there are violins. I did look into the math about graduations and the geometry of the shape of the violin. Some very interesting stuff especially the geometry of the shape.

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coolpinkone
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August 24, 2013 - 6:53 am
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I am so enchanted by this project Dan.  I mean I could seriously get into a blond violin.  I just finished reading the whole post/thread.

I wonder if someday I would have the talent patience..etc ... Maybe a pinkish one... It seems very intimate to have a violin that you know everything about... It seems very cool.

 

good job... Video was too awesome.  Great comments too!  So much inspiration from the violin makers here!

Toni

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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August 24, 2013 - 8:58 am
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I love this project.  As a woodworker my fingerers are itching to get at an in-the-white violin and start playing around with it, not just the set up, but how about the finish too .... humm, carving, wood burning, inlay, painting; the possibilities are dizzying.    But, alas... this is a project for another day!

Thanks for sharing your progress on this - and very glad to read all the posts and see that we have so many knowledgeable folks here!

@coolpinkone, there are some amazing stains that will color the wood... even pink, yet let the natural wood grain show through... something to put in your 'thinking' for later :-)

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August 24, 2013 - 11:37 am
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Looks nice! Wanna hear it drooling

thumbs-up

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DanielB
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August 24, 2013 - 12:17 pm
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The main thing with deciding to go with a blonde/natural finish is that there are so many red or brown (or some combination of those two) violins out there.  I've seen some people refer to "traditional" as being "natural", and it just is not.  The traditional gold/red/brown finish is largely achieved with stuff like artist's oil paint.  It is only traditional because the "old masters" did it even back then, because people wanted violins that looked antique.  Where I come from, artificially antiqued furniture (for example) wasn't called "natural" by anybody with any sense. LOL

People do so much talk about how special the woods used in violins are.  But then they play something where it was obviously more important that it be red or brown than that it looked like spruce and maple.  I have yet to hear any compelling evidence of why that should make it sound any better. 

 

@Kevin:  They use fiber for the purfling on violins sometimes?  What kind of fiber?  At least the light band *looks* like wood.  I can see some grain to it, etc.  The black, of course is thin enough that one can't really tell if it has grain.  Or does this fiber stuff imitate wood to the degree of looking like it has grain?  I have seen plastic purfling on some guitars over the years, but that you can tell for sure by the look.  I think I may have seen a mention of it in articles or books on making instruments, but I don't know as I have ever seen any fiber purfling in person.  Not familiar with the stuff, so I can't say for sure.  The lighter inner band looks like wood, though.  It didn't "tan" to the same degree as the maple though, so I'm not sure what sort of wood it might be.  

so the official answer would be:

dunno

 

@Ginnysg: If you normally do woodworking, you'd probably do a better and.or quicker job than me.  I hobby a bit with wood, but it isn't what I have the most experience with.  So far as stuff like carving, woodburning, inlay and etc.. Yeah, I took a couple months after I got this one to consider many options and do some sketches.  But the longer I looked at it, The more I liked just the look of the wood.  Particularly the top, which is fine grained and no obvious flaws.  The maple of the back isn't the pretty flames some folks go crazy for, but it does have a good degree of "march straw" figuring, so it is a very hard maple.  (March straw is an old name for the "flecks" some people look for on violin bridges, since it is known for being strong/tough enough for a bridge.  Just in case anyone hasn't heard that term before.)  The sides have, well, I wouldn't call it flame, but they do have some glow when the light catches them right.  The neck is very plain, no "flame" to it, but if it was a guitar neck, it would be desirable.  The grain is tight and straight and they paid attention to the direction of the grain when carving it.  No reason why it shouldn't hold up well and transmit vibration nicely.

 

I have still been contemplating a bit of carving or painting a few fine lines or doing a little silver wire inlay.  You know, just some little fancy touch somewhere.  LOL

I also had fun experimenting with different things to tint wood and different varnish/finish recipes over the summer.  There were a lot of experiments of that nature on maple 1X2 stock from the hardware store and pine and spruce boxes and etc.  But I figured it would be tiresome to show the process I went though for that, since I did a few dozen on just the pieces of maple.  Also, I'm not sure as it is a good idea to encourage folks to run out and try to cook their own varnishes.  It is dangerous, even doing it outdoors.  It was fun to play with though, and the only way I could think of to get some firsthand experience in how the resins and other materials used in "varnish" affect how it looks and goes on, how long it takes to cure, and etc.

It has also been fun practising the different carving and cutting techniques on scrap.  Well, not all scrap.  Some of it was wooden toys or boxes that will be handy when the holidays roll around. LOL  Did a bit of reading on violin making and looking at pics of the insides of antique violins and etc.  A lot of neat learning experiences in a project like this. 

With guitars, and other gear, I started working on my own gear pretty early.  Couldn't afford shop repairs, really. LOL  But I did feel it gave me a better sense of how they work, how to adjust them to get the sound better, and how to take care of them.. And how to know good workmanship and materials when you see them.  I also work on guitars and etc for some of my friends, always have.  Every repair you do on someone else's instruments, you learn something to not ever do with your own instruments.. "What the h*ll happened to this poor thing??"  LOL

 

@coolpinkone: You could do it.  You learn about one thing at a time, and then it's hands and time, like any project.  Maybe not this week, but no harm in adding it to your "someday list".

 

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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August 24, 2013 - 4:06 pm
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@Ginnysg:

Like DanielB said, if you are experienced with woodworking, if would go faster for you. I did not have any experience but I have a daughter that was awaiting for a bigger size violin and the teacher had been pushing me to get her a bigger violin since April (Sooner than I thought, I thought she would need a bigger one by the end of the year, so I had at least six to eight months to work on it), so that kind of pushed me to work on it regularly. It was really fun working on it. I just had to take the courage to make the first move and that took me a couple weeks or so -- just took it out of the case and admired it every night:))

My problem is I don't have time to do it, I worked on it at night, mostly on Sunday nights after I was rested from the weekends (then I got too excited about my progress and didn't sleep well on Sunday nights and being tired at work the next day).

My kit did not required much work and I did not do as much as DanielB. I just glued the top and neck on and varnished it, fitted the pegs and peg holes, end pin and end pin hole, bridge, nut, saddle, and padded chinrest, set the sound post, and set it up. The whole process took me about four months, but about half the time is waiting -- waiting for the varnish to dry.

If you look on ebay, there are violin making kits on sale, $57 each plus $19 shipping = $76 from bezdez (it used to be cheaper), it does not come with hide glue, varnish, bow, and case. I think it is a good deal and it was a kit I preferred, I ordered mine from a dealer because no one carries fractional violin kit.

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DanielB
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August 25, 2013 - 4:29 am
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@pky: Now that's a really cool reason to make a violin from the white.

With me it was more a matter of seeing things on my old Mendini where I knew I would have done it better.  Even on my Hoffmann, there are a few little points that I would have done better, even though the materials they used were much nicer than the Mendini.

Seeing CatMcCall's projects were what got me to actually buy a low end in-the-white to see what I could do, though.  She just made it look too darn fun, and there was the idea of getting to try a violin that was unique and looked how I want.

Mine wasn't really a kit in the sense most people would think of it.  Just the neck and the box.  I didn't want fittings and etc because I want to pick those myself. 

I did a bit more work than you or most people might want to, because while I was lurking around the net for pointers on doing an in-the-white I saw folks being told that you can just take an in the white, put on a decent finish, add fittings if it doesn't come with them, string it up and at least after some adjustments, probably have a decent enough beginner instrument.

I figured I can do at least as good a job, if I take my time, as someone banging out a lot of them an hour in a factory to meet a quota.   

But some of them also were getting told that some shops and actual luthiers buy in-the-whites and re-graduate the plates and fix up the craftsmanship issues to put out somewhat better than beginner grade instruments where they can afford to sell them for a bit less because they didn't have to put in as much time as if they had built them from scratch.  Frequently those are experiments to try a new type of varnish or some other technique, I gather.

So I figured I may as well give it a try.  At the worst, I'm out not that much money, and I get more understanding of the instrument and how to know quality work when I see it. 

My Mendini was standard cheap factory work.. My Hoffmann was factory made, but shop checked and given a beginner set up at the shop.  There was a world of difference in how they played right out of the box, and I'd learned enough by the time I got my Hoffman to be able to tell that the setup was better and that the basic workmanship and materials were better (which was only reasonable to hope, since it also cost about 100 more than the Mendini had).

What the heck.  I figured if I'm going to risk botching up an in-the-white, I may as well risk botching it up while trying to see how good I can get it.  I might get lucky, and I already have a beginner grade violin I like the sound of, so it's not like I was really risking the violins I usually play.  Shoot for the moon, y'know?

 

PS- You also mentioned something I hadn't, that might be important for people considering doing an in-the-white as a project.  In it's way, it is kind of oddly exciting.  I think I know just what you mean about not sleeping well after doing some work on an instrument because it was being fun/interesting and your brain is kind of still wanting to be working on it after you've put it away. 

So for folks considering it, I do have to say it is great fun as a project, even though it can be time-consuming.  It isn't as tedious as it may sound in text, and it is definitely exciting in it's way.  I've been having a great time with it.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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August 25, 2013 - 12:23 pm
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DanielB said 

Seeing CatMcCall's projects were what got me to actually buy a low end in-the-white to see what I could do, though.  She just made it look too darn fun, and there was the idea of getting to try a violin that was unique and looked how I want.

Yes, CatMcCall is the one who inspired me and made me think "I think I can." She helped me a lot throughout the whole process! 

But some of them also were getting told that some shops and actual luthiers buy in-the-whites and re-graduate the plates and fix up the craftsmanship issues to put out somewhat better than beginner grade instruments where they can afford to sell them for a bit less because they didn't have to put in as much time as if they had built them from scratch.  Frequently those are experiments to try a new type of varnish or some other technique, I gather.

Yes, I believe some people do that, and some people use unfinished violins to practice varnish or experiment varnish. Some people wanted unfinished violin so they could varnish it with oil or spirit based varnish so the violin would sound better than those sprayed on lacquer. 

PS- You also mentioned something I hadn't, that might be important for people considering doing an in-the-white as a project.  In it's way, it is kind of oddly exciting.  I think I know just what you mean about not sleeping well after doing some work on an instrument because it was being fun/interesting and your brain is kind of still wanting to be working on it after you've put it away. 

You are exactly right about your brain is kind of still wanting to be working on the kit after you put it down. This morning I had dreams about how I could strengthen the neck joint for my box violin.

 So for folks considering it, I do have to say it is great fun as a project, even though it can be time-consuming.  It isn't as tedious as it may sound in text, and it is definitely exciting in it's way.  I've been having a great time with it.

Yes, go for it! As I said the hardest thing for me was to take the first step -- I took the kit out of the case numerous time to just look at it or dry fitting it, until the big day came - I glue the top on!

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August 25, 2013 - 6:07 pm
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DanielB,

What kind of sealant did you use? How many layers did you put on?

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DanielB
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August 25, 2013 - 8:07 pm
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@pky:  "Bunny back" (rabbit hide glue), 2% solution by weight.  Applied hot with a sponge, excess wiped off with a vinyl glove.  Two coats, each allowed to dry overnight.

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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cdennyb
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You do realize Daniel, I expect sound samples as necessary to compare don't you?

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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coolpinkone
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August 25, 2013 - 9:21 pm
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@DanielB you know I am itching to do something..with either Pinky.. or those dang chairs... :)   who knows.. maybe I will order a white  violin and copy you.... but since you are you and you have a seemingly magic touch.. I may end up with my own version of Pinky.. (gah...) facepalm

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DanielB
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@cdennyb: Sure.  But it will probably be at least a few months yet before she gets completed and gets a voice.  And then she'll only be in "baby voice" for some more months.  Probably a bit stuffy and thin, trace will be a lot of spikes and not much in the way high frequency range.  LOL 

Oh, and since this will be my third attempt at a bridge and my first try at a soundpost.. Good chance that at least at first, she'll sound worse than the average "under 100$" violin.

Besides, something could still go wrong and she could end up being a very stylish clock.  In which case the sound trace would be of "tick tock tick tock"  LOL

Although, yeah, that becomes less likely the further I get along without major mishaps.

 

@coolpinkone: Well, it could be pink, and of course it would be your own version.  If I recall correctly, I don't think Pinky sounded bad.  A little thin and muted maybe.  But that could be partially due to the finish or the strings or not having been played enough for her sound to "open up" yet. 

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Helvetika
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August 25, 2013 - 10:17 pm
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This is really quite amazing.  And very technical, it appears.  This is something I might like to try when I am retired. 

Aslo I've been thinking for months now, that I would really like a gold or blonde fiddle.

Interesting to read this at this point, because I was thinking of buying a little house in an artsy town, close to where I used to live, and where my daughter now lives, and there is a highly regarded luthier in that town... hmmm coincidence...maybe, maybe not...

something to think about.

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September 1, 2013 - 4:18 pm

@cdennyb: Sure.  But it will probably be at least a few months yet before she gets completed and gets a voice.  And then she'll only be in "baby voice" for some more months.  Probably a bit stuffy and thin, trace will be a lot of spikes and not much in the way high frequency range.  LOL 

Oh, and since this will be my third attempt at a bridge and my first try at a soundpost.. Good chance that at least at first, she'll sound worse than the average "under 100$" violin.

Besides, something could still go wrong and she could end up being a very stylish clock.  In which case the sound trace would be of "tick tock tick tock"  LOL

Although, yeah, that becomes less likely the further I get along without major mishaps.

 

@coolpinkone: Well, it could be pink, and of course it would be your own version.  If I recall correctly, I don't think Pinky sounded bad.  A little thin and muted maybe.  But that could be partially due to the finish or the strings or not having been played enough for her sound to "open up" yet. 

 If you made one, why not make it your favorite color?

 

@Helvetika,

you don't have to wait till you retire to try this out. I completed mine in four months by only working on it mostly Sunday nights and some week nights.

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