Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

AAA
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Jim's Bach Bouree Project Blog
Creating a Violin & Piano Duet
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (53 votes) 
Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
January 19, 2022 - 8:08 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5701
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
41sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@Jim Dunleavy , @ABitRusty -

Thank you both! 

I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole with this, so I really appreciate you've helped me understand this better. 😊

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 21, 2022 - 9:49 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've being thinking about the logistics of recording and file handling.

Usually for a small project I just record away and sort out the files later, but for this one I'm definitely going to have a lot of video and audio files to sort out and match up later, and they will all need editing together.

I've come up with (well, pinched from pro film-making) the idea of using a cue card for each shot (to easily identify each video clip) and announcing the same information aloud (ditto for each audio file). So, I invested (a whole £2.75!) in an A4 dry wipe board with pen and eraser from ebay, which duly arrived on Wednesday, so I'm all set now.

I also find it useful to do a clap to the camera once video and audio are running, as it helps to sync up audio with video later on while editing.

I'm presently letting my laptop (which I'll use to run the audio recording software) do all its windows updates, as it doesn't get switched on that often, so it gets well behind.

I'm expecting to set up for some actual recording next week.

Meanwhile, I've been mucking about with my mic test video and have found that a bit of reverb actually creates more of a difference between the 2 mic configurations, and I definitely prefer the XY.

I was always going to add a little reverb to the final edit, as it helps blend the instruments together (also the recordings in a small room tend to be very dry and somehow unrefined) I'll maybe upload the one with added reverb to YouTube so I can link to it here.

EDIT: Link to same video but with a bit of reverb:

Avatar
JohnG
Greater Chicagoland
Members

Regulars
January 21, 2022 - 12:52 pm
Member Since: April 16, 2021
Forum Posts: 1556
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
43sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Definitely makes a big difference when comparing both close together, but not to the point of distorting the sound or making it unrealistic! NICE!

The old curmudgeon!

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
January 21, 2022 - 6:15 pm
Member Since: February 9, 2019
Forum Posts: 2931
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
44sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Jim the camera mics arent bad either in this video.  If you ever setup to run an A B kinda test again it would be interesting to see/hear if you lowered the stand and had the mics about chin level out front a few feet away and also do a mono vs stereo test.  I havent decided which mic position I like better in my room setup.  Im thinking Im favoring the out front about chin level lately but have done both.   again interesting topic!   

Avatar
SharonC
Members

Regulars
January 22, 2022 - 12:49 am
Member Since: June 24, 2020
Forum Posts: 1106
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
45sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Jim Dunleavy said
...
I also find it useful to do a clap to the camera once video and audio are running, as it helps to sync up audio with video later on while editing...

 

@Jim Dunleavy 

I’ve been doing a similar thing to a “clap” when I’ve been recording & putting together duets.  I’ll play an open string a measure or two before the beginning of the piece  while playing each part (i.e., at the same spot).  I’ll use this audio point to help me align the files in the editing software.  Very useful, particularly when the one part starts before the other.

Sounding great--so good that you're capturing your progress on this--helpful for all of us.

Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
January 22, 2022 - 1:29 am
Member Since: February 9, 2019
Forum Posts: 2931
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
46sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

ill do the clap thing too and really exaggerate above my head so when scrolling i can see it too.  i like the idea of the white board with clip numbers.  the more you do it the audio file waveforms are easier to pick out matching sections too.  btw Jim I missed your fur elise till tonight...great!  if you ever were able to do a piano flute and violin video i think it would be cool.  

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 23, 2022 - 4:35 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
47sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Thanks for the comments guys.

ABitRusty said
...... If you ever setup to run an A B kinda test again it would be interesting to see/hear if you lowered the stand and had the mics about chin level out front a few feet away and also do a mono vs stereo test....

  

@abitrusty I may well try that at some point. One of the problems is that there are a lot of variables and it's difficult to cover all bases; ideally you'd have someone else playing and move the mics round while monitoring with closed headphones, but that's not practical for me as nobody else in the family (that can get here easily) plays fiddle.

SharonC said
I’ve been doing a similar thing to a “clap” when I’ve been recording & putting together duets.  I’ll play an open string a measure or two before the beginning of the piece  while playing each part (i.e., at the same spot).  I’ll use this audio point to help me align the files in the editing software.  Very useful, particularly when the one part starts before the other...........

  

@SharonC yes, as you say, it's also useful for syncing 2 different parts together; you just need to cue the clap in whichever one you record first.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
January 23, 2022 - 6:39 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5701
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
48sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@Jim Dunleavy - 

Don't know if it's worth anything, since I just use my phone to record, but I've setting it up close to chin height and at about 1 o'clock.

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 24, 2022 - 4:41 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
49sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

ELCBK said
@Jim Dunleavy - 

Don't know if it's worth anything, since I just use my phone to record, but I've setting it up close to chin height and at about 1 o'clock.

  

Thanks Emily. Space for the mic stand is a bit limited in the room I'll be recording in (without obscuring the view of the camera) but I'll make sure they're roughly at head height.

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 24, 2022 - 4:52 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ooh, look what I found (warning - the sound quality is rubbish on this video)! 

ab_channel=LunneWadenius

The music is free at imslp as well:

https://imslp.org/wiki/2_Inter.....%2C_Ethel)

 

The next project is writing itself. coffee1

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
January 24, 2022 - 5:10 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5701
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Jim Dunleavy -

FABULOUS! 

Ethel Smyth is a new Brittish Composer to me, quite a colorful character & life (according to Wikipedia). 

Love this piece is from 1929 ...can't wait!

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 24, 2022 - 5:49 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
52sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

@ELCBK Yeah, I'd never heard of her either. I was browsing in imslp looking for something I'd be likely to be able to play (the fiddle part being the crucial one, as my weakest instrument) when I came across this and it looked ideal.

Anyway, back to the Bouree. I've been setting up the recording area this morning, and this is how it looks right now. I'll be sitting on my guitar stool in front of the radiator.

Playing-Space.jpgImage Enlarger

Checklist-CU.jpgImage EnlargerCue-Card.jpgImage EnlargerLaptop.jpgImage EnlargerMetronome.jpgImage EnlargerMic-CU.jpgImage EnlargerVideo-Cam.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 24, 2022 - 1:46 pm
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Today was mainly about getting the gear set up in the room, but I also needed to do some test recordings to debug my checklist and make sure everything was working (and to make sure I could read the cue card even in the long shot, which I easily can).

I want to get at least one good take for each shot size: wide, medium and big close up, so that I can mix them up to cover mistakes and make the video more interesting by changing shots when I do the final edit. The 2 videos below are the shots as they came out of the camera, but with the HQ sound synced up and used as the sound for the clip in the edit. I've included the whole thing from start to finish so you can see how I'm doing it.

There were a few bugs to sort out, including recording sound from the laptop microphone instead of the audio interface and hitting the wall with my bow. Lots of fun, and nice to get it out of the way before going for the actual takes, which I'll hopefully get all done tomorrow. I'll run the metronome at the speed I want to take it to get it into my head, then I'll stop it and play the actual piece at (fingers crossed) the same speed.

It couldn't have been easier to sync up the separate audio file thanks to the metronome ticks and the clap. I'm also delighted with the sound quality.

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
January 24, 2022 - 2:08 pm
Member Since: February 9, 2019
Forum Posts: 2931
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
54sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

sounds great jim and your using a very logical approach to set this up which will be helpful.  like the jig you played on this!

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 24, 2022 - 2:11 pm
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
55sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

ABitRusty said
sounds great jim and your using a very logical approach to set this up which will be helpful.  like the jig you played on this!

  

Thanks, It's called The Tenpenny Bit. I love it.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
January 24, 2022 - 2:42 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5701
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Looks/sounds like you are close to the 'Big Day' of final recording!

💖 this Blog so much, just linked it to the 'Recording the Violin' section of the forum. 😊

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 25, 2022 - 6:38 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
57sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

ELCBK said
Looks/sounds like you are close to the 'Big Day' of final recording!

💖 this Blog so much, just linked it to the 'Recording the Violin' section of the forum. 😊

  

Yep, I'm having lunch in five minutes, a short warm up, then it's showtime!

beg

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 26, 2022 - 4:09 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
58sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

I was too knackered to post this last night, but it didn't go well with the recording yesterday.

I warmed up nicely and was in a good frame of mind, but as soon as I tried to start the audio recorder, Audacity decided it couldn't connect to the audio interface. 15 frustrating minutes later I found that creating a new project would allow it to work; however it randomly stopped working twice more during the recording session.

All this carry on meant my flow was well and truly broken and I played pretty poorly; in fact I doubt if I can cobble together one decent performance from all the takes.

Add to that the fact that when I exported all the audio files I found that Audacity had switched the sample rate from 48 to 44.1 kHz so all the audio was recorded at the wrong rate. This in itself is probably not a huge deal, as it's hard (if not impossible) to tell the difference audibly - however my video editor exports at 48khz, so there might be some degradation with the conversion. All probably not a huge deal, but combined with my below-par playing made for a very depressing evening.

I'm still not sure what the problem was, because everything worked fine during the test recordings the day before (also I tried the audio interface on my desktop PC this morning, with the same version of Windows 10 and Audacity, and it worked fine). The only suspect is a rather aging USB lead I had lying around that I used to connect the interface to the laptop - but I'm not convinced it was that.

Anyway, I need to sort that out before I try recording again and that means a delay. Adding to that, our bathroom fitters phoned yesterday to say that they will be coming early to fit our new bathroom, so they will be here in the middle of next week instead of the week after, so I have to clear the loft (US = attic) above the bathroom so they can get access to fit the new lights (a major challenge with my back!). I was really hoping to get all the recording out of the way before they came.

So, I'm going to leave this project where it is for at least a couple of weeks. I need to regroup, and now I can't see any way of getting it all done before the new bathroom is fitted (there's bound to be a lot of noise, as well as disruption, so no chance of recording while it's being done).

I might post my best 'cobbled together' version from the session if I can get one edited together.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
January 26, 2022 - 4:33 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5701
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
59sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@Jim Dunleavy -

So sorry you had all that trouble! 

That's very depressing, especially after all the work you've put in so far. 

How's Audacity customer support?  Or, maybe someone here will offer some good advice. 

I used to get so frustrated with my PC and programs, was ready to throw everything in the trash.  Only way I keep my sanity is to think of them as 'people'. 

...and we ALL know 'people' do strange things, for no apparent reason. (lol) 

I'd normally say there's no rush, but will you have to re-tune the piano again - if you have to wait to record for a few weeks? 

 

 

- Emily

Avatar
Jim Dunleavy
United Kingdom
Members

Regulars
January 26, 2022 - 4:56 am
Member Since: April 19, 2015
Forum Posts: 792
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ELCBK said
@Jim Dunleavy -

So sorry you had all that trouble! 

That's very depressing, especially after all the work you've put in so far. 

How's Audacity customer support?  Or, maybe someone here will offer some good advice. 

I used to get so frustrated with my PC and programs, was ready to throw everything in the trash.  Only way I keep my sanity is to think of them as 'people'. 

...and we ALL know 'people' do strange things, for no apparent reason. (lol) 

I'd normally say there's no rush, but will you have to re-tune the piano again - if you have to wait to record for a few weeks? 

 

 

- Emily

  

Thanks Emily. Audacity's freeware, so not sure about support, but it must be something in my setup, because I've used it for years with that interface and never had a problem before (though it is a new version).

The piano already needs touching up, but it won't be a big job, as it's already up to pitch (spot on in fact) so I'll just have to put a few unisons right, where one string has moved slightly. It's to be expected, especially since my pin-setting skills are rusty (and they were never that great to start with). 

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 58
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today HeadCheese
Upcoming Mad_Wed, Reacher, Andrew, Prudence, Lenicus, ButteryStuffs, Gil, kit, makinnoise, wisco kid, Longstride46, Nathalie, marta, klezmerkat, vocaliw95, winxart, nancyjoshua
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 5701
ABitRusty: 2931
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2680
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
DanielB: 2379
Gordon Shumway: 2194
damfino: 2078
Kevin M.: 1973
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31184
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 79
Topics: 10089
Posts: 127180
Newest Members:
Sanahan
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16197, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3741, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 4327