Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

AAA
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Scottish Piper Tunes Played on The Fiddle
Mimic the Bagpipes!
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (15 votes) 
Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
July 6, 2021 - 11:08 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Seems many Scottish tunes were originally known as 'Piper Tunes' - played on the Highland Bagpipes. 

It's easier to learn how to mimic the style of 'Pipes' on the fiddle, when you understand a little about why Bagpipes are played the way they are.  Notes are limited, drones are limited and ornaments are limited.  

Here's a link to the 'Jamie Laval' thread.  He's an outstanding fiddler who is an expert at playing Piper tunes! 

Jamie Laval Thread

West Highland vs. Cape Breton?

Alasdair White is a marvelous fiddler & teacher from the Outer Hebrides, playing West Highland Style Fiddle.  Here he plays 2 Piper Reels, 'Calder's Rant' and 'Prince of Wales'.  Sheet music for Prince of Wales can be found at thesession.org, but NOT Calder's Rant - I haven't checked the archives, yet. 

Also, check out What is a Rant? Thread

These sound exactly like Cape Breton!

Now I really like the 'Chanter's Tune (Song)', but the sheet music I've found doesn't get me to sound like a piper. 

I did just find a video that kinda does!  Started this video by Fiddle Robert (Linn Barnes) at a point to cut to the chase, because the beginning is about stringing a Cello like a Fiddle. 🙄 

Watch his ornaments! 

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4744594/Imported_Blog_Media/Bagpipes.jpg

 

@ABitRusty - 

Do you play this?

...duh, I should've thought of using those trills.  

- Emily

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
July 6, 2021 - 9:36 pm
Member Since: February 9, 2019
Forum Posts: 3010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@elcbk said

Do you play this?

I do not.. nice one though... he likah dah reverb too!  

Interesting story on one of the podcast about how in early days of violin, people would play with it positioned like that.  sorry cant quote which podcast/episode.  That history may be common knowledge, if not Im relying on interviewee to be correct..🤔  maybe someone can verify that.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
May 1, 2022 - 9:51 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Okay, Larry Sanger's got this down REALLY well! 

This is SO COOL!

I never would have thought to change the tuning & play these tunes this way - LOVE IT!  

 

Nora Crionna (jig) and Miss McCloud's (reel), learned from The Gravel Walks by Mickey Doherty, who, like his brother John, occasionally played in the scordatura tuning EAAA in imitation of the bagpipes

"Nora Crionna" Jig, aka. "Nóra Críona" (at thesession.org).

Nóra Críona Jig - Sheet Music

"Miss McCloud's" Reel, aka. "Miss McLeod’s" (at thesession.org). 

Miss McLeod’s Reel - Sheet Music

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
July 13, 2022 - 10:48 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I mentioned in the Traditional Irish Styles Fiddle Playing Thread - how much I love "O'Donnell's Return" from the Highland Sessions, but later found someone in the comments said it was actually called "The Haughs Of Cromdale"

Maybe close, but they are different tunes - and I found some help to learn them, too! 

Here's the bare bones, simple sheet music & midi for "O'Donnell's Reurn"

https://abcnotation.com/tunePa...../tb17/0007

OImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
July 13, 2022 - 11:10 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

So, for "The Haughs of Cromdale", I actually found a fiddle TUTORIAL from Ronnie Gibson! 

There's sheet music for this, available at thesession.org - maybe this one (#4).  

Screenshot-2022-07-13-at-11-01-27-The-Haughs-Of-Cromdale-strathspey-on-The-Session.pngImage Enlarger

 

As you can see, "O'Donnell's Return" and "The Haughs of Cromdale" are BOTH GREAT TUNES - WORTH LEARNING, but they are different. 

 

I may be wrong, but think they may be played back-to-back in this video(?)  

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 5, 2022 - 6:20 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thought it would be fun to take a look at some tunes from a Piper's perspective. 

Pretty interesting take on rhythm & ornaments! 

For Fiddle reference, the Maggie Cameron Strathspey (thesession.org) is played in this video - starts at 01:38

 

Keith Bowes plays Maggie Cameron Strathspey on the pipes - great to compare the sheet music here to what I linked at the session for fiddle, because of the ornaments

 

Here's the 1st part of Keith's piper tutorials for Maggie Cameron Strathspey, where he talks about rhythm & phrasing (find the other parts of this tutorial at Keith Bowes's Youtube Channel). 

 

Manuscript in Skinner's hand of his 'Pipe Strathspey for violin', 'Maggie Cameron'. Since the pipes have no G sharp, the key gives G natural. His note below the tune says to 'Press hard with the fingers, and don't omit the wee notes or fluttering leaves. Give one bow to each bar as a rule.'  

Here: With audio of James Scott Skinner playing it!
Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 5, 2022 - 9:23 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I talked about Struan Roberson's Rant in the What Is A Rant? Thread - it's a Strathspey I really like. 

One more account - tutorial (parts 1&2) from piper Keith Bowes, "Struan Robertson" - how singing the rhythm helps!  

Pipers seem to have a special language they use to sing the sounds of a tune to learn it.  I've witnessed Alasdair Fraser using it when he teaches, also.  It's very helpful in learning the groove and accents... wish I could find out more about it.

3rd & 4th Part Struan Robertson Piper Tutorial

 

Found an interesting article relating to Pipers, Fiddles & the Origin of the Strathspey - The Strathspey in Scottish Music - by William Lamb, from bagpipe.news.

In earlier times, terms such as jig, reel, strathspey and hornpipe were ambiguous regarding musical form, and more or less interchangeable.

We are accustomed to thinking of tune types (e.g. reel) as being primary, and their homophonous dances (the reel) as being secondary. However, in earlier times, a ‘reel’ was any tune that could be used to accompany a reel; dancing was the definitive activity, not the music. It was inconsequential if a ‘reel’ was in 4/4, 6/8 or even 9/8. 

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e1/37/ac/e137acd1339c64efa5006a91430d68c8.jpg

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 17, 2022 - 6:12 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ELCBK said
Found an interesting article relating to Pipers, Fiddles & the Origin of the Strathspey - The Strathspey in Scottish Music - by William Lamb, from bagpipe.news.

In earlier times, terms such as jig, reel, strathspey and hornpipe were ambiguous regarding musical form, and more or less interchangeable.

We are accustomed to thinking of tune types (e.g. reel) as being primary, and their homophonous dances (the reel) as being secondary. However, in earlier times, a ‘reel’ was any tune that could be used to accompany a reel; dancing was the definitive activity, not the music. It was inconsequential if a ‘reel’ was in 4/4, 6/8 or even 9/8.

A little more on time signatures...

Found Pipers have 'Marches' in 6/8 Time Signature! 

 

At thesession.org you will find them usually notated like 'Jig', but THEY SHOULD NOT TO BE PLAYED LIKE ONE!  

No need for three legs, just one step per beat, with three eighth notes per beat instead of two (trust me, I marched a lot in the early days of my military career). [AlBrown] 

 

Ooo... FINALLY - explanation of the 'language' used for rhythm singing!

 

Maybe just keep Jig = March in mind while learning these tunes from YouTube Fiddle Tutorials (many good ones available).

There's more 6/8 Marches (usually listed as Jigs) than you might think!

Discussion at The Session - 6/8 Marches

Skye Boat Song - we all know it from the "Outlander" series - played slow as an Air.  Here's a simple bagpipe style play-along. (Teach Yourself Bagpipes With Lindsay Davidson).

 

"Farewell To The Creeks - PM Sam Scott 6/8 Set", play-along (NorthOlbo). 

 

Sounds MUCH better if you add just a little swing between the 2 heavy beats - like here:  Played by Tom McGovern

Farewell To The Creeks (a great mixolydian tune)  ...more info from ceolachian at The Session

A pipe march ~ “composed by Pipe Major James ‘Pipie’ Robertson of Boyne, Banffshire, in 1915 when he was a prisoner of war in Germany. According to Norman Kennedy, the ‘Creeks’ refers to the Native-American tribe the Creek Indians and not streams.” 

I didn't know about the 'Creeks' - only the 'Cree' Indians!  "The history of early Georgia is largely the history of the Creek Indians."

 

🤔... so, think I just naturally enjoy playing my Jigs at a March pace, maybe with a little swing to the hips - no wonder I get confused on rhythms!  I'll blame it on too much marching when I was in AF Basic Training (such an impressionable age back then). 😏 

- Emily

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 17, 2022 - 8:44 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

...more 6/8 Marches.

Blue Bonnets Over The Border (it's in Bb major, but also played slow as an Air and you'll only find versions in other keys at thesession.org)

Great BEGINNER tutorial for "Blue Bonnets Over The Border" - from Roxanna Sabir!  She also clearly shows how to change from playing as an Air - to a Jig! 

If you want to try to sound more like a piper on the fiddle, this is a GREAT play-along video for "Blue Bonnets Over The Border"! (from NorthOlbo) 

 

..."The March of The King of Laois" is actually notated as a March (in 4/4, instead of 6/8 time) at thesession.org - certainly doesn't sound right in 4/4. 

 

...which leads to why 6/8's can stir up some discussion - for good reason!

"The Heights of Cassino" at thesession.org

From Davy B:

This is not a Scottish Jig. As a Scottish musician whose best accomplishment (though not the only instrument) is the pipes, I get fed up with people calling these great 6/8 marches jigs.

The two roots of the problem is the 6/8 time signature and the fact that Scottish Country Dance bands pick these up, play them only slightly up from march tempo, round them off and call them jigs. There are two problems with this. Firstly, the sheer power of a scottish four parted pipe jig played at the proper tempo and with the proper phrasing, remains undiscovered and unrecognised. Secondly, the grace and dignity of the “heavy” 6/8 marches is completely comprised. So two great Scottish musical idioms are completely ruined. This tune and many like it e.g. 10th HLI, Doctor Ross etc. are not Jigs they are marches. We have many great jigs and they are different animals(literally) altogether.

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 17, 2022 - 9:17 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

...wanted to share this 6/8 March, because I found it just hilarious that The Fife Strathspey & Reel Society replaced bagpipes with accordions!  🤣

"Dovecot Park" 

 

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/3f/2a/9f3f2a9e9a75c5dfc663a8fb2cf48d89.jpg

 

...have to admit that from now on, every time I run across a 6/8 time signature - I'll definitely take a closer look, to find out where it came from!

- Emily

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 18, 2022 - 12:00 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

...couldn't resist - I'm done for the night! 

 

 

Yep, don't let anyone fool ya - "Wi' a Hundred Pipers" is a 6/8 March you can play on the Fiddle! 

 

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 18, 2022 - 10:30 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

🤔... cool drum patterns are a very expected part of a Scottish pipe band, so why can't I find more FIDDLERS (especially playing Scottish tunes) using them for accompaniment?  

Scottish Pipe Band Drumming Article - didn't know that Scottish drums are different! 

 

...got to thinking, there are many tabla Hindustani rhythm videos for fiddlers to play along with - so, I decided to look for snare drum videos with Scottish piper tune rhythms! 

I found practice video play-alongs that included a metronome beat, like this "Massed Band - 6/8 March Tempo" from Pipe Band Drummer YT Channel

 

 

Another Channel, Pipe Band Drumming YT Channel, has 2 HUGE playlists of video play-along drum scores, like "The Green Hills of Tyrol" - this favorite of mine turns out to be a 3/4 MARCH!!! 

 

...do I hear a car in the background?  😳 

 

Adding more to my confusion about March times...

I always associate the "The Green Hills of Tyrol" (aka. A Scottish Soldier) - with Scotland.  I just found out it happens to be a 3/4 time MARCH!  I've been finding that Fiddlers don't seem to be playing it - they are playing a different Reel or Jig, by the same name & I just don't see the appeal. 

Sheet music to fiddle with - in the link. 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a1/d8/41/a1d841dc449bf495965d37f5c5ed0695.jpg

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
September 18, 2022 - 11:11 pm
Member Since: February 9, 2019
Forum Posts: 3010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

@elcbk said.."

Adding more to my confusion about March times...

I always associate the "The Green Hills of Tyrol" (aka. A Scottish Soldier) - with Scotland.  I just found out it happens to be a 3/4 time MARCH!  I've been finding that Fiddlers don't seem to be playing it - they are playing a different Reel or Jig, by the same name & I just don't see the appeal."

Ive shared this one a couple of times.  heard it a few years ago and seems to be a modern pipe march but sounds more 3/4 here.  dunno.  think i even ran across it listed as a slip jig but that cant be right.  Ive always thought the arrangement was perfect considering the title and the story behind his fiddle here.  Has a sad mood..or lonesome quality to it  Story is in another thread a while back and fiddlerman has a tune of the week for it.

 

Heres another take on it.  Probably closer to how it was written.  But ive always favored the other.  If you havent checked his channel out theres a bunch there.  Even think he plays or is posession of James Skinners fiddle.   look through the list its in one of the titles.

reverb!

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 19, 2022 - 12:32 am
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@ABitRusty -

...reverb 🤣 surprised Paul has any hearing left!  Think I've watched almost all of his videos. 

So, a 9/8 March! 😵  How many more different time signatures can a MARCH have? 🤪  Thank you for adding to my confusion. 🥴 

For Sam - I love swing in tunes, but (IMHO) it adds joy to what is supposed to feel like a lament. 

Think Paul's playing it just a wee bit fast for a March, or a lament - kinda surprised me. 

Fiddlerman's Version, A Tune a Week #40 – Battle of the Somme, is a great tutorial - it's still different than the others, in 4/4 time. 

This thread has broadened my outlook.

I know it all depends on why someone plays a tune - and I'd like to learn this one, but think I'd shoot more for the speed & rhythm that I feel here (or play like an Air): 

 

 

Thank you for bringing up this great tune!

Avatar
ABitRusty
Members

Regulars
September 19, 2022 - 8:06 am
Member Since: February 9, 2019
Forum Posts: 3010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

@elcbk said..."Fiddlerman's Version, A Tune a Week #40 – Battle of the Somme, is a great tutorial - it's still different than the others, in 4/4 time. "

Different than HIS others or different than the ones i shared?   i dont think the ones i shared in 4/4 dunno

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 19, 2022 - 8:26 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

(edited)

@ABitRusty -

Sorry, will try to clarify. 

Fiddlerman's is in 4/4 - different than Paul's. 

Like you said, Paul's seems right, so maybe in the 9/8, but sounds a little too fast for the feeling of a lament.  I have seen/heard marches at that speed, though (the difference between a 'Quick' March & a 'Slow' March?).

I listened to Sam's again, heard the 'one, two, one, two' - wasn't until I sped it up a bit that I could hear it was more like Fiddlerman's 4/4 time. (Thank you! for pointing out similar). 

The tune is listed in 9/8 at thesession.org - but labeled a 'slip jig'!  I still feel the 9/8 March time fits the "Battle of the Somme" best.  🤔... my Grandfather fought in France in WWI, might have even been there for the '2nd Battle of the Somme' (1918), which I think had a better outcome than 1916.

From The Fiddler's Companion

Scottish, Retreat March (9/8 time). D Major. Standard tuning. AABB. This pipe tune, a retreat from Army Manual (Book 2) and composed by William Laurie (1882-1916) commemorates one of the greatest and most terrible battles of World War I. Jack Campin remarks that Laurie "just lived to see it become an immediate success before dying of his wounds a few months later.” “The retreat march is not necessarily a march time tune which would be marched to,” explains Stuart Eydmann; rather, “as often as not it was played as part of the evening ritual in military camps as day duties gave way to night ones. It was not linked to the military manoeuvre of retreating in or from battle but was linked to the idea of refuge and safety in the camp.” The tune is sometimes heard as a slow air, after the fashion of the Albion Country Band’s interpretation, no doubt engendered by the horrible human outcome in terms of loss of life.

Oh, NOOO! 😳  THERE ARE 12/8 MARCHES, TOO!  

 

Some found at thesession.org, but transcribed as 6/8 'jigs'.  Hear this example at the session (see comments): Dugald Gillespie (I like this tune).

Now, the 12/8 March version:

 

I'm not hearing any difference between the Scottish Piper 12/8 March & the 6/8 Jig version at the session!  Think the transcription is good, but maybe software limits labeling correctly(?) - or I just can't tell the difference. 😞

🤔... think I'm playing ALL my jigs like compound 6/8 Marches! 😳

Geez, not sure if part of my confusion stems from that I might have been unconsciously interpreting Compound Meters (6/8, 9/8 & 12/8) as a syncopation, hearing duple AND triple meter at the same time (if that makes any sense), e.g., "Garyowen", is supposed to be a 6/8 March (duple meter), others have been lead to believe it's a 6/8 Jig (triple meter) - including me.  But, it always sounded more complex to me, than either one!  ...maybe I'm confusing meter with rhythm. 😔 

meta%3AeyJzcmNCdWNrZXQiOiJiemdsZmlsZXMifQ%3D%3D.jpgImage Enlarger

This Bagpipe Music Library has huge lists of tunes, grouped by time signature/type of tune - great for reference with small sound bites. 

Compound Time - Can You Hear & Feel It? Thread

https://freenamedesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/emily-name-design4.jpg

Avatar
Fiddlerman
Fort Lauderdale
September 21, 2022 - 11:39 am
Member Since: September 26, 2010
Forum Posts: 16250
17sp_Permalink sp_Print
5

Funny how with the right sounding fiddle and some drones you can easily get your fiddle to sound like bagpipes. :)

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 21, 2022 - 4:27 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Emily wallpaper All things Emily Katherine Pinterest 640x960

I love that Larry Sanger changed his tuning to EAAA (post 3) to get the drones, but I'm very hesitant to tune up the whole step on the G string - only because I've had a few issues with the string windings in regular tuning. 

Larry tunes the D string down 3 whole steps, which seems crazy - he mentioned it was very loose, but fine for a drone. 

After I learn some more of these tunes better - making sure I understand these rhythms, was thinking I'd sit down & take a good look at all my options for droning... might even be time to drag Mortimer back out & string up with something more forgiving of tuning changes.  Helicores, maybe? 

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 22, 2022 - 12:26 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I don't know how I could overlook Bonnie Rideout when it comes to this topic. 

AND I can't believe I didn't notice she's a fellow Michigander (or I forgot!) - graduated from U of M's School of Music! 

Love how she mirrors the pipes with her fiddle in "Pipe Major William Wilson"

 

 

Here's another great example of how you can tell she's playing a piper tune on her fiddle (the 1st tune of the set)! 

"North Highland Tunes"

 

 

I don't own this CD, so if anyone has the liner notes - let me know if the names of the "North Highland Tunes" are given. 

Avatar
ELCBK
USA
Members

Regulars
September 22, 2022 - 12:41 pm
Member Since: June 10, 2020
Forum Posts: 5949
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Looked to get a better idea of how pipers look at the March vs Strathspey vs Reel (known as the MSR), and found a standard - the Australian Pipe Band Association (APBA) "National Principle of Piping"

Thought this was very interesting about what they want in Reels: 

Reels are another dance idiom. They should flow musically rather than bounce as a Strathspey does.
They should be of similar tempo to the march and should be played in two bar phrases with good
attention to up beats. Round horn/reels the likes of those often heard in medleysare not suitable.
A good display of reel idiom will be sought. Also fancy medley style finishes and harmonies are totally inappropriate

 

See attachment.

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 77
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Kevin M., NewFiddlerGirl, Soldier, srogers, rlaggart, Deltatango95, derpyviolinist, bus4us5, WynterSkye
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 5948
ABitRusty: 3010
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2687
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
DanielB: 2379
Gordon Shumway: 2251
damfino: 2088
Kevin M.: 1973
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31217
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 79
Topics: 10153
Posts: 128172
Newest Members:
faltercutler3
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16250, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3744, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 4432