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Thomas has been playing arpeggios now for a few months and is doing quite well. He is playing 3 octave arpeggios now and I taught him(as my father taught me, his father taught him.....)to just remember 2...2...3....Play the base note, count up 2 notes and play it, count up 2 more notes and play and then count up 3 more notes and play it. It was easy for him to remember. Now last week his teacher told him to forget about that way and to remember arpeggios are always just 3 notes, the 1st, 3d and 5th note of any scale. Wellll mister man, now I am in a quandry, let along Thomas. I understand that is a different way of looking at arpeggios but the difference between the two is in a 1 octave arpeggio(for example) it is NOT just 3 notes, it is the base note, 2d, note, 3d note and the last note, which is the 8th note. Now is his teacher NOT counting the last note because it is the beginning of the next octave? I really am confused and so is Thomas.
Jim(Thomases Dad)
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Well, take this for what little it might be worth. I think that the problem is that you are at odds with the teacher on just about everything. And this is just an observation, and I am probably wrong.
But, if you are paying an instructor, obviously, you think the teacher has more to offer than beyond what you are able to do. Also, I believe you are more Fiddle than Classical and I think the instructor is more Classical. Therein lies a problem. She is teaching in a classical way with classical, orchestral ways of looking at things. You see things in the American Fiddle form. The two do not mesh.
Your instructor is teaching Thomas in a way that will fit him as he progresses into the formal training you are providing. He needs to know the classical formal training if he is going to be playing in orchestras, etc. He needs to be able to see things as the rest of the orchestra sees it. When he is in high school, or college, the terms and ways of doing arpeggios are the way the instructor is doing it. Not counting 2 2 3.
You have to decide if your instructor is going to teach Thomas, or you:l. If it is the instructor, you have to stop teaching beyond what the instructor is doing, or fighting what the instructor is doing. It is making it harder on Thomas. You can't both be teaching him, and you can't do that in two conflicting ways. You need to decide, lessons or no lessons. If lessons, let the instructor do the job. If you, I would stop the lessons and teach him. In the end, it is Thomas who is going to be hurt by this pulling back and forth.
I am not sure I am saying any of this right, and if I offended, it is not meant that way. It is just an observation because input was requested.
I cannot believe I am, in a way, debating for the instructor.
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@JimandThomas -
🤔... actually, the 1-3-5 is a great way to start thinking in terms of chords.
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I always think of patterns rather than notes, I think it comes from my guitar background. I like the idea of counting 135 though, sounds good to me.
Cant beat a sunny day
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@Thomas B
By all means stick to the 1, 3, 5 method of describing arpeggios. It’s a universal standard and a fundamental concept in music theory.
(In 60 years of music training, I’ve never heard of your 2, 2, 3 method. I’m not saying that it hasn’t worked for you or your family. However, it’s really not the standard way of describing a simple arpeggio.)
Thinking in terms of 1, 3, 5 is fundamental to understanding other concepts of intervals: major thirds, minor thirds, perfect fourths, etc. It helps abstract the concepts. It helps with transposing. It’s the language that all musicians use.
And, although chord designations of I, IV, V are definitely not the same as describing arpeggios as 1, 3, 5, this approach to arpeggios will make it easier to understand chord progressions later on.
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It's important to understand that an arpeggio is a broken chord. The purpose of practicing arpeggios is not just to play the finger pattern, but also to hear and tune the notes of the 1-3-5 triad that underlies all of Western music.
I've also never heard of the 2+2+3 step method from either classical or folk musicians. It works as far as finding the notes to play, but at least as far as I can see, it teaches the notes and not the chord.
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Thank you everyone for your input but let me clarify I didnt say I was against or even disliking his teachers way to teaching arpeggios. The only time I post a question about her teaching is when we dont understand it or are at odds(which I do not involve Thomas with so he does not get confused), which has been I think only three times. I have agreed and completely condone everything she is teaching Thomas. The arpeggio issue is not something I dislike or even dont want to stop him from learning. I posted it ONLY to understand it, and I dont see an answer yet. I taught Thomas the 2,2,3 method because it was easy to learn to begin with at his age, as it was for me. Everyone has their own method of teaching certain intricacies on the violin, with none of them wrong or right, it is just whatever is easiest to learn for that individual to begin with. Whatever is easiest for a student to learn. The 1,3,5 method is perfectly fine with me and I would never confuse Thomas because I didnt like or agree with his teacher(except when it came to his bow hold, in which she was clearly wrong). Again, my question is......is his teacher NOT counting the last note because it is the beginning of the next octave? So the original post was simply trying to understand why the last note in an arpeggio is not counted. in other words(for example using the C major scale)does the first note actually begin on the E and not the C? I cant figure it out in order to explain it better for Thomas.
Jim(Thomases Dad)
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The top note is already named within the 1-3-5. It's another 1, in the next octave. Thomas's teacher is describing arpeggios more generally, in any number of octaves, rather than just in one octave. It's 1-3-5 in each octave.
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Forgive me for this but there are 4 notes in a single octave arpeggio though, so how can 1, 3, 5 be the only notes? HOnestly , I am confused. For example, if I were to play the C major arpeggio, it is C, E, G, C...am I missing something?
Jim(Thomases Dad)
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After a few minutes of thinking, I think you are saying that the last note in the first arpeggio does not count as 4, but rather goes to counting as the FIRST note in the second octave arpeggio? Just trying to figure out the easiest way to help an 11 year old is all
Jim(Thomases Dad)
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Stop thinking about it, and don’t explain it to your kid.
It’s intuitive. He’ll just get it.
Let Julie teach him. Julie Andrews. Do, Re, Mi… Start singing the song. Solfège is such a great tool.
”Do, a deer, a female deer
Re, a drop of golden sun
Mi, a name I call myself…
… That will bring us back to Do!”
A basic diatonic scale has 7 notes, not 8, even though we often practice the scale as an eight note sequence playing the Do that is an octave above the root.
Arpeggio: Do, Mi, Sol, … and that will bring us back to Do.
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@JimandThomas -
Thomas B. said
After a few minutes of thinking, I think you are saying that the last note in the first arpeggio does not count as 4, but rather goes to counting as the FIRST note in the second octave arpeggio? Just trying to figure out the easiest way to help an 11 year old is all
Yes.
This might also help - explains that simple arpeggios are made of a 3-note chord - so are grouped in 3's, with an extra tonic at the very end. A 3 octave, ascending arpeggio would be: 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 1-3-5, 1.
https://www.mymusictheory.com/.....-arpeggios
In later grades, you have to be able to play dominant 7th and diminished 7th arpeggios. These chords are made up of four notes, so we play usually them in groups of fours, not threes.
I understand your confusion - when I took piano lessons as a child, I understood arpeggios as 4 notes (like you said)... and, for a single octave, I still hear them that way in my head. (lol)
It's also confusing because I don't really see where anyone really talks about counting arpeggios in YouTube videos, but I did see a video that mentioned it was important to shift up to the tonic when playing ascending 3 octave arpeggios, and down to the 5th when descending - but I don't know if that if true for all scale arpeggios.
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@ELCBK Now it makes sense, thank you. Just trying to word it so Thomas will understand. I think the reason my Dad taught me the 2 2 3 method was because, at age 6, it was MUCH easier to count the spaces between notes in order to play argeggios, rather than trying to understand dominant vs. diminshed, broken chords vs. scales, one, two and three octaves....yadda yadda yadda. People have to understand that the simpler you make it for very young students, and THEN expounding on their simplistic understanding as they progress, is not only a lot easier for them to grasp, but it keeps them from being overwhelmed and makes it so much more fun.
Jim(Thomases Dad)
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@JimandThomas -
I probably shouldn't be trying to second guess the teacher, but was also thinking, what might be important is just that 1-3-5 starts Thomas using Scale Degrees.
The 8th degree of the scale doesn’t have its own name as it’s actually just the tonic but an octave higher.
Scale Degree Names Explained - hellomusictheory.com
A simple definition for Thomas:
...an arpeggio is a chord played note-by-note in an ascending or descending order. An arpeggio is similar to a broken chord, however a broken chord does not need to be played in an ascending or descending manner. (findyourmelody.com)
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@ELCBK Thanks again my friend. It all makes sense to me completely now....but....(theres always gotta be one) when Thomas and I were going over this after school today, he asked me a question that i simply could not answer appropriately for him. He asked "Why not just keep out the 4th note(we were talking about C major and the in particular the last note being the C)out of a one octave arpeggio then, if it the beginning of the next octave?" LOL, nope COuld NOT answer that for him.
Jim(Thomases Dad)
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@JimandThomas -
If you are talking about the very end note played in a 3 octave arpeggio, I'd love to know if there's a reason for it - other than it sounds good. (lol)
I have to say you've helped me learn a lot today!
Because of my curiosity & digging around for this discussion, I ended up finding the answer to a question I've had since I first started playing the violin! I couldn't understand why people were playing extra notes at the beginning & end of practicing scales... found the answer in a Cello practice video (of all places)!
So, thank you for bringing up questions!
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Thomas B. said
his teacher told him to forget about that way and to remember arpeggios are always just 3 notes, the 1st, 3d and 5th note of any scale.
and repeated, the teacher was implying, for however many octaves you want. That you play the tonic at the end goes without saying.
Students need a little aural and oral practice every now and then - they should be able to recognise and sing intervals such as a major third or a perfect fourth or fifth etc. Once every month or two, my piano teacher would spend 5 minutes going through these exercises with me. Things like augmented 5ths are more advanced. I've just spent a minute trying - I got there after a few attempts. Maybe it would be a good idea for me to do some work on that. Semitones are worth practising, as they can be pretty inaccurate on a violin. And if you play a chromatic scale and every semitone is a little bit out, the endpoint can be who knows where after 12 errors. Also this kind of practice develops pitch memory, which is useful if you don't have perfect pitch.
It is mathematically true that an arpeggio is a tonic then the note two steps up, but you should quickly convert that to major and minor thirds (the 5th is always a minor third up from a major 3rd, and vice versa. It's the same with 6ths and 3rds - C to E is a major third; E to C is a minor 6th. C to Eb is a minor third, Eb to C is a major 6th. DFD? Easy - D to F is a minor third, therefore F to D is a major 6). But if you think mathematically, you will think slowly, and that is bad when you are playing an instrument.
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As to adding notes at the start and end, that's just to complete a rhythmic sequence for beginners, I assume, so that they don't lose the beat or their place. I never did that on piano. (other reasons might be to fix the intonation in your ear, but after a while that should be unneccesary too)
Andrew
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The other good reason to play the tonic at the top is that it's a recurring pattern in actual music. An arpeggio is one of the common ways to move from one octave to the next.
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AndrewH said
The other good reason to play the tonic at the top is that it's a recurring pattern in actual music.
Quite - it's a solid phrase ending.
Andrew
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Gordon Shumway said
Things like augmented 5ths are more advanced. I've just spent a minute trying - I got there after a few attempts. Maybe it would be a good idea for me to do some work on that.
Augmented 5th are easy if you know The Entertainer by Scott Joplin - ignore the first 2 notes of the main theme and sing the next 6; you've just sung 3 augmented 5ths in a row. That's how I got it into my head anyway.
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