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To judge from the beginners books I've got, the rule is:-
If you want to play notes above A, play the A string open: don't stop the D string with your 4th finger.
If you want to play notes below the A, stop the D string. And so on.
And indeed playing 4th finger on a string (e.g. to play A) to 1st finger on the next higher string (to play B) is difficult, whereas 3 to 1 (G to B) isn't so tough.
Presumably I have to learn somewhen to play 4 to 1 in order to avoid ugly-sounding open strings? It seems that one of the tricks is to have the 1st finger already in position before playing with the 4th finger. Apart from that, what are the rules? Or do pros play open strings but play them nicely?
Andrew
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I don’t have a complete answer but there are 2 main reasons to stop a note, rather than play the open string. (1) To play a “better” tone, or one that matches the passage currently being played, and (2) to use fingering that follows or proceeds a logical pattern, such as playing notes that remain on a string or will switch to the next string.
Having said that, the choice of playing an open string or a stopped note then depends on how the music is written, the tempo, dynamics, and how complicated the passage is where the decision to switch strings happens.
I have found that my books for strings will often write fingering specifically to teach a concept, which is important. However, in real life, orchestral music is often open to interpretation and left to the player’s discretion. And there are just good ways of doing things that make life easier. For beginners, though (and I include myself) follow the fingering in the book.
- Pete -
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I nearly answered my question this evening - I was looking at some 2-octave scales which were fingered for no open strings, so I've just got to practise them.
I'd follow the fingering in the books, but some of it is sparse.
Andrew
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One of the important purposes of practicing scales is to develop muscle memory and aural memory, so that you place your finger correctly when you need it. I tend to believe you should generally practice scales with more than one fingering (e.g. both fingered and on open strings), so that all the possible finger patterns are set in your memory.
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AndrewH said
you should generally practice scales with more than one fingering (e.g. both fingered and on open strings), so that all the possible finger patterns are set in your memory.
Taken on board.
But there is a Fiddlerman video on position playing where he mentions in passing that positions are used to avoid open strings and to avoid going from 4th finger on one string to 1st finger on the next higher string, so it's obviously a recognised technical issue.
Andrew
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Andrew Fryer said
Taken on board.
But there is a Fiddlerman video on position playing where he mentions in passing that positions are used to avoid open strings and to avoid going from 4th finger on one string to 1st finger on the next higher string, so it's obviously a recognised technical issue.
What you really want to avoid is half-steps from 4th finger on one string to 1st finger on the next string. Crossing strings from a low 4th finger note doesn't pose the same problems as from a high 4th finger, because you can curve your 4th finger over the next string up when it's not stretched out to the higher note.
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@AndrewH
What you really want to avoid is half-steps from 4th finger on one string to 1st finger on the next string. Crossing strings from a low 4th finger note doesn't pose the same problems as from a high 4th finger, because you can curve your 4th finger over the next string up when it's not stretched out to the higher note.
I'm paying attention but not quite getting the picture. Do you mean:
B with first finger on the A-string and A with fourth finger on the D-string;
(like this example from Suzuki 1 - the Happy Farmer - bars 13-14)
E with first finger on the D-string and E with fourth finger on the A-string?
(like this example from Suzuki 1 - the Gavotte -bar 21)
Granted, the first is a whole note and the second is an octave (not half-steps as you mentioned.) I find the Happy Farmer example quite doable although avoidable. The Gavotte example, however, I'm finding cringe-worthy.
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Actually, never mind... I wasn't thinking clearly, probably because I was just popping into this forum quickly in the middle of the afternoon. What you want to avoid, rather, is going between "high" 4th finger on one string and any 1st finger on the string above.
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If I ask nicely with a cherry on top, will you share why?
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When you're extending your hand between 1st finger and a "high" 4th finger, your 4th finger is flatter and can easily touch the string above it. That means you have to move your left hand later to make sure your 4th finger isn't touching the string when you play the higher note, rather than anticipating the note.
It's not unplayable, but I tend to use fingerings that avoid it when possible.
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Oh wait, I just stuck on my thinking cap. You're taking about my Happy Farmer example in reverse...
4th finger on the D-string to 1st finger on the A-string
... presumably because I'd run a pretty high risk of inadvertently muting the A-string.
Oui, non, peut-être?
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Thanks, AndrewH... our last messages crossed paths 
Much appreciated.
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Sorry, because we're either side of the Atlantic, I don't get to see these discussions until I get up in the morning, and you're fast asleep.
Going from A on the D string to B on the A string.
Beginners seem to be told to avoid it because it's tricky.
And AndrewH is saying going from A on the D string to Bb on the A string is harder, which seems obvious (well, maybe he's saying Bb on the D string, but of course, normally you'd play it on the A string, but I take his point). The way I have worked out is have the first finger ready on the A string when you are playing the D string then remove the fourth finger and change strings.
Beginners books always (I'm presuming) have you play any A on the open A string, no matter what the musical context is.
But last night I noticed that the two-octave Bb scale is for post-beginners, and going from Eb on the A string to F on the E string is unavoidable. I can keep my first finger barred across the A and E strings (for Bb and F) all the time. Or that might be poor technique. I don't know.
I've got a friend who is a violist and we have agreed she'll give me lessons once a month.
Andrew
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Eb on the A string to F on the E string is easier, because it's a low 4th finger and the finger can stay rounded above the strings even if you have short fingers.
There are no absolute rules in fingering. Sometimes you'll want to use the high 4th finger anyway, depending on the context. It's just that avoiding going from high 4th finger to 1st finger on the next string above is one of several things violinists and violists try to minimize when deciding on fingers because they're a bit harder to do smoothly.
You should still learn to play that step from high 4th finger to 1st finger, of course, because sometimes it's either unavoidable or necessary to avoid more difficult fingerings elsewhere.
As for the Bb major scale, you should avoid barred fingers if possible. If you have to play a 5th double-stop or jump a 5th, you can place your finger between the strings where it stops both of them.
That said, it's likely I have a lot more awkward fingerings to avoid than you do, because I play viola and have the shortest fingers of any adult I know.
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Great discussion and answers above. I love it.
I want to go one step further and say that open strings sound different from fingered notes. For this reason, using positions and the 4th finger is advisable if you want the notes to match.
Making music should always be a consideration. What color do you want to achieve? Will the open string make it sound worse or better? Do you want vibrato on the note? You can't vibrate much on an open string.
Should the note be soft or powerful? Open strings are in general louder but you can dampen them as well.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
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AndrewH said
you should avoid barred fingers if possible. ...you can place your finger between the strings where it stops both of them.
That's what I meant when I said barred. Sorry.
Would I be right to assume that you try to avoid doing it with your pinkie, or are all 4 fingers in the picture? My first 3 fingers are much fatter than my pinky, so maybe my question is a personal one.
Fiddlerman said
Making music should always be a consideration. What color do you want to achieve? Will the open string make it sound worse or better? Do you want vibrato on the note? You can't vibrate much on an open string.
Should the note be soft or powerful? Open strings are in general louder but you can dampen them as well.
All taken on board. But I've found that if I wave my violin gently from side to side, I can get a vibrato effect on an open string. Is that done or is it frowned upon?
Andrew
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