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Article from the Strad linked below—
I know we’ve discussed the things talked about in this article, but it is good to see a shift in the violin teaching community that validates adult beginners and acknowledges that they learn differently from children.
https://www.thestrad.com/playi.....61.article
Note: If you have trouble seeing the whole article, clear the cache on your browser & try again.
Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.
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It's possible that they are not asking the right question.
Their question "do adults learn differently from kids?" is based on the assumption that Suzuki teaches kids perfectly. If adults' needs are different, it doesn't necessarily mean they learn differently from kids. It may mean that they require something better than the Suzuki method.
Andrew
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No, it's not based on Suzuki. Please do not assume that it is. The article cites Suzuki as an example, but it also cites Essential Elements, which is designed for school music classes.
I have yet to encounter a beginner violin method that is not primarily intended for children, and non-Suzuki teacher education programs also tend to start with the assumption that beginner students are all children.
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True, but does it make much difference?
I could have said "If their question "do adults learn differently from kids?" is based on the assumption that kids' methods teach kids perfectly, then if adults' needs are different, it doesn't necessarily mean they learn differently from kids. It may mean that they require something better than kids' methods."
The point is, people invent education for kids that they imagine is perfect for kids and the onus is on them to prove that it is. I'll go further - the world over every parent thinks their kid couldn't get better nurture than from them. They are rarely right.
Back to the Suzuki method specifically, if it's a lifestyle/socialisation programme, then adults already have lifestyles and social groups, so it won't suit them, and that won't be anything to do with how they learn. And that proviso needs to be extended to every method used for teaching children.
One way in which adults learn differently from children academically is in the speed of information absorption. Random things are absorbed slowly. Things that agree with a pre-learnt system are absorbed more quickly. Adults have learnt these systems and can assimilate new stuff much more quickly than kids who don't possess thought systems. The most insane example of speed learning is math. Do math at university and the cramming is insanely intense, but it suits people who have the gift for it.
Musical instruments involve neuron/nerve/muscle training - (psychologists call it procedural memory), so the above considerations probably don't apply. Music might be therapeutic for a 3-year-old (for their nervous system more than their musculature), but so might any demanding activity. My violin learning (begun at the age of 58) has probably been at the same speed as my piano and oboe studies when I was a teenager.
Andrew
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I'll go further - the world over every parent thinks their kid couldn't get better nurture than from them. They are rarely right.
thats kind of a broad statement there. are you suggesting some established authority that knows better would be a wiser choice on how any individual child should be raised? or just as it pertains to violin instruction?
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Gordon Shumway said
True, but does it make much difference?I could have said "If their question "do adults learn differently from kids?" is based on the assumption that kids' methods teach kids perfectly, then if adults' needs are different, it doesn't necessarily mean they learn differently from kids. It may mean that they require something better than kids' methods."
I believe Kids DO LEARN DIFFERENTLY than adults.
Kids haven't had a chance to develop all the strategies or ways to organize information for the many ways adults learn. Kids wonder if they will get an immediate reward or not, will someone like or hate them, will they get in trouble for doing something, but they are also curious to see if they can do things. They DON'T think about long term goals, or if what they learn can have an impact on their life in the future. Kids don't know how to judge what a 'good' source of information is.
I've looked over some studies on how people gain motor & cognitive skills at different stages in life. Kids, teenagers, young adults, older adults all benefit from more specific training, but teenagers start the shift toward adults - who benefit more from a variety of teaching methods & Meaningful Learning.
I DO remember how I was taught by my different teachers at school. My mother told me (when I was about 12 yrs old) that she felt her role as a parent was to guide me - and the school's role was eventually to 'teach me HOW to learn', not really 'what to learn' - changed my outlook.
Going over this thread, I think it's probably easier & less frustrating for a teacher to teach a child to play the violin, than initially teach an adult. Adults demand answers.
I don't completely agree with the chart, but it's good enough.
One big learning difference between Kids & Adults - Kids have a start on collaborative learning skills, but it's usually only with other kids their age - a very limited info & opinion base. Kids have to learn how to judge character, what sources of theory & techniques are reliable while growing up. Even orchestras, that include Teens along with adult (seasoned) players, can't be of great benefit unless the Teenagers can really spend enough time getting to see & learn how the adults think about playing.
Workshops & this forum are great places for Collaborative Learning!
Learning in a group setting can foster meaningful learning. People tend to be more engaged in the learning materials and can take advantage of other students’ knowledge by integrating it with their own. Furthermore, when explaining a concept to another person, the speaker has to present information more coherently for the listener to understand properly. This process helps to organize the information in the speaker’s and listener’s minds. Having another person challenge an idea can also aid in meaningful learning. It can result in a stronger understanding of a subject for both parties – information can either be corrected or enhanced through elucidation. (Wikipedia)
NO ONE LEARNS OR PROGRESSES WITHOUT PRACTICING EVERY DAY!
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I think the thread is already wrought with emotion and its point is lost.
Initially I thought Andrew was making a big objection, but now I think he was just making a POI - he points out that primers are traditionally for kids, and my point was just that if adults reject kids' primers, that doesn't mean they learn differently, even if they do. I rejected a book that required me to sing "sticky toffee pudding" in rhythm as I played the violin.
There have been thousands of educational experiments conducted on kids over the last century. We just don't know how to teach them. Partly we have to teach them to belong to our culture, so teaching methods will evolve as our cultures evolve.
Your table, Emily, seems to be taken from some corporate training website, which typically splats out a load of contrasting clichés to justify its existence. Convergence and divergence? Really? I suggest there couldn't be more convergence in the way adults in the USA think about religion and politics, unless you go to North Korea. There's a thread about Christian music conservatories on VCom right at this moment.
The premise was "adults don't like kids Methods, therefore adults learn differently."
My reponse was, that is not the only possible inference.
My own experiences are of course atypical.
Andrew
Verified human - the ignominy!
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Gordon Shumway said
My own experiences are of course atypical.
Here's one of my experiences. See if it fits in with the table anywhere.
I was 9 or 10 years old and a specialist came into our class.
She had a box with a sliding lid and she put a toffee inside it and said "tap the lid twice and slide it open and you can have the toffee"
I said "what's the point of tapping the lid?"
She said angrily "don't ask questions. Open the lid, I showed you how"
I asked "is there some kind of mechanism in the box that operates when I tap the lid?"
She thought hard and said "No, there's no mechanisim"
I asked "So what's the point of tapping the lid then?"
She angrily said "I don't have time for this discussion, do as you are told"
I furiously hammered my finger down onto the lid and slid it open, although I had only "tapped" it once.
I apologised: "sorry, I meant to tap it twice but my hand slipped"
She said "that's quite all right."
I asked if I could still have the toffee.
She said yes.
Lol
My brother slid the lid open without tapping it.
Andrew
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The point of my post (the OP) is that the paradigm of the violin teaching community is shifting.
There was a time when the idea of an adult learner (particularly, an older adult) was ridiculous. Then, it became just an oddity.
Now, (my point) the topic is not just if adults can effectively learn (old dog, new tricks) but how can educators effectively teach them, acknowledging that the methods traditionally used with children are not ideal (for whatever the reasons).
Since vcom was mentioned, there was an article posted this month there discussing pedagogue Megan Healy’s talk at the ASTA conference in Orlando last spring. As indicated in the article, Healy wrote her doctoral dissertation on the topic of adult learners (again, a shift: music education doctoral candidates would have never been able to do a dissertation on adult learning years ago). Article is here:
Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.
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Gordon Shumway said
. . . I suggest there couldn't be more convergence in the way adults in the USA think about religion and politics, unless you go to North Korea. There's a thread about Christian music conservatories on VCom right at this moment.
Bless your heart.
Not sure what the relevance of this nugget of wisdom is to the thread topic, but as “an adult in the USA”, I’m glad for your insight on how I think about religion and politics.
However, I think I’ve got a handle on it, thanks.
Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.
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good article. I think as adults a teacher helps stay on track between longer breaks where a child maybe needs more frequent attention? idk..
from the article
"A teacher and adult student might build a friendship over time, but it is important to hold their paid lesson time sacred."
true.. im lucky in that when i go its usually a last lesson and we do alot of gabbing to catch up. Ive never been or ever felt short changed for time spent talking about whats been happening..if anything she has been gracious with time so if anyone came out on the wrong side of time it hasnt been me. Thats one of the reasons i like where i go. its alot of adults and theres more than just the clock in for a lesson and when its over its done and on to the next type attitude. Its kind of a community type setting. Maybe something an adult teacher can have vs teaching children.
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I watched this video out of sheer curiosity... really hit home!
Bill Hilton is surprisingly insightful - he totally nails these
"10 Problems Of Self-Taught [Adult Musical Instrument Learners]
With Solutions!"
(NOT just about pianists)!
Aware of most of these, to me they are like traps - easy to fall into, sometimes hard to crawl out of... but it's NEVER too late to identify & work on correcting problem areas!
Liked some of the solutions Bill offered!
Btw, 'I' have to periodically re-evaluate how I am currently approaching learning & practice - just to make sure I'm not spinning my wheels.
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Lack of direction due to internet information overload.
I hope you realise that this video mustn't become just another symptom of that!
Yes, we have to monitor and control ourselves, at every level. I've been keeping a very loose diary, and I was continually tripping over my own feet (I posted/blogged about it too) until I found my comfortable level in autumn 2020 after two years of playing. And since then I have had direction and a game plan (play at the same level for a year then go up a level).
I recently blundered there - I had the idea from somewhere that each of the Vivaldi Four Seasons first movements was as difficult as the other three. But now I realise Spring movements 1 and 3 are the only things at my level. The rest of the hard stuff is associate diploma level or above, so I have to rejig my year's plan.
Andrew
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I see information overload as one of the biggest problems, made worse by the wildly varying quality of online tutorials.
I actually think I would not have been as successful at self-teaching if YouTube had existed when I started. When I was starting out, there were tips online -- but they were in text and pictures rather than video, and you had to search for specific topics. The result was that I stuck with books for direction at the beginning. Having to work harder to find and understand the online information also kept me from racing ahead too fast. And as I advanced, I started playing in orchestras, which helped me figure out what I needed to work on and was a place where I could get some feedback and pointers.
When YouTube first launched, I had already been playing in orchestras for four years. I didn't start looking for information on YouTube for another four or five years after that, and that was still two or three years before lots of beginner tutorials started popping up all over YouTube. So I've only used YouTube as a resource for more advanced techniques, and the quality of those videos tends to be higher because they're aimed at serious students who already have a qualified teacher.
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I hate online videos. Most are bad. The rest are overlong and waffly. I like Pierre's - they are short and to the point. I'm sure I like others, but finding them is like finding random needles in random haystacks, and you have to waste 16 minutes watching them first. This is why I recommend finding 3 or 4 teachers you like and only watching their videos and no-one else's.
Andrew
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@AndrewH & @Gordon Shumway -
Thanks for your opinions on this! I think the video makes some important points of concern to adult self-learners!
I have a LOVE/HATE relationship with YT & the internet in general. Both now have some amazing information, but they are also WAY more littered with JUNK today - AND, add the new infestation of regurgitated repeats by A.I.! Still, worth me scanning/scrutinizing WAY more videos & articles to find good ones. I need all the reinforcement I can get my eyes/ears on (#9) & with the way the forum is laid out here, they trigger my memory, ideas, help me move forward.
I had fun looking at how I fair with what Bill Hilton identified (post #12) as the 10 main problems he sees with 'self-taught' adult students:
#1. 'Tendency to Race' - trying to learn by ear & wanting to memorize has helped slow me down. I still revisit some theory - taken me a while to use it enough. Related rabbit holes help slow me down & actually reinforce what I learn. 
#2. 'Lack of Direction' - this may be a good thing for me. I choose workshops over a 'course'. I don't do as well with 'Linear Learning' (lose interest). 
#3. 'The Tick of Doom' - video recording gets me - even though I may want to develop a tune much more, once I record it - it's done/like dead. I'm working on this state of mind. 
#4. 'Scales & Exercises' - yeah, yeah, I'm doing more. 
#5. 'Not Getting Feedback' - 
'd off, PLENTY feedback here OTF, but one of my cats is my harshest critic! 
#6. 'Inefficient Practice' - thanks to great discussions & info offered here OTF, got this 'd off! Happy with my progress. 
#7. 'Unknown Unknowns' - Oh yeah, important point... sheet music can getcha! Been discussion on this here OTF - aware things may be 'assumed', not notated. 
#8. 'Over/Under Estimating Strengths/Weaknesses' - 'd off, I got grit. 
#9. 'Lack of Reinforcement' - got this 'd off, thanks to the Forum, books, YT & Internet sites! 
#10. 'It's Just Pressing Buttons' - sorry, the 1st thing I noticed (unintentionally) was all that sound between half-steps (that aren't seen on a piano)! ...and can't get expression by just playing notes - got this 'd off!
...yep, I really appreciate the Fiddlerman Forum & it's members!
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