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Wow!
And this started out as such a simple question (I thought!)
Great responses everyone, it'll take me a while to digest. And I'm still trying to fill in the blank
I am amazed at how old people of my age are.....
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cool one string steel guitar? lol, sounds so cool! 
"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.
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@TerryT: Simple answer.. No, a Dorian scale is not the same as a Pentatonic scale.
If you were sitting at a piano and you played the white keys starting on D up to the D note an octave higher, that would be a Dorian scale. It would the a Dorian scale in the key of D, to be precise.
Still sitting at a piano and using the white keys, if you play the notes from C to C but leave out the notes F and B, that is a pentatonic scale. C major pentatonic. Basically leaving out the two notes that are most likely to be dissonant sounding in the scale, which results in a scale that is pretty "safe" for improvisation and etc. Major pentatonic scale is often one of the very first a beginning guitar player will learn when they start learning to play "lead solos".
Dorian scales are also used a lot in improvisation, particularly in some forms of jazz.
There are a lot of more complicated answers as well, but they can get real complicated, since Dorian has meant more than one thing over the centuries, and *any* scale with only 5 note played can be called a pentatonic. So there are major pentatonic scales and minor pentatonic scales and.. well, like I said, that gets complicated and I think what I just explained with the couple examples above was maybe more what you were asking?
@ratvn: Really interesting to see a monochord as a musical instrument. I only knew it as a study tool. Here's a vid (I didn't find one of great quality, but hopefully enough to give a general idea) of the monochord as I know it, and the sort of experimentation one does with them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....qF6Iz3jVxA
In western music history, Pythagoras was supposed to have used one when figuring out the mathematics behind the intervals. By measuring and comparing the distances on the string for intervals that sounded good to the ear, a mathematical proportion was noticed that could be applied to get the rest of the notes. The proportions he used don't give the same exact pitches as the later "equal tempered" system used on things like pianos (and most electronic tuners) these days. But Pythagorean intonation *is* still traditionally used on violin for playing solo melodies and etc.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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DanielB said
@ratvn: Really interesting to see a monochord as a musical instrument. I only knew it as a study tool. Here's a vid (I didn't find one of great quality, but hopefully enough to give a general idea) of the monochord as I know it, and the sort of experimentation one does with them:
The proportions he used don't give the same exact pitches as the later "equal tempered" system used on things like pianos (and most electronic tuners) these days. But Pythagorean intonation *is* still traditionally used on violin for playing solo melodies and etc.
Thank you for sharing that informative monochord tool, and for instrumentation, string length, material, gauge and tension would need to be considered.
I did not know that Pythagorean intonation is traditionally used for solo. That really made sense since it has more harmonics contents. Great info.
I've read Pythagorean is a type of Just Intonation with some modification. The proportion is the numerical ratio mentioned in my previous post, but he limited it to 3/2 so the perfect fifth, again, is the building block for Pythagorean tuning system.
While we at this subject, I ran across a vid showing a modified guitar which is user (or I should say player) adjustable frets/more frets that is capable of tuning in equal tempered, Pythagorean, Just Intonation and several more tuning systems (haha, not at the same time), that are used by many music cultures around the world. Just like you said, whatever sounds good to the ears.
I was thinking the same thing you said about piano with equal tempered tuning as well until seeing another demo of a modified piano. Yes, user adjustable and capable of quite a number of tuning systems just like that guitar. Amazing!
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Bzzzt. Time is up for filling in the blank. You will find the answer here.
I did a web search for the terms: 2212221 rotate dorian
At http://cochranemusic.com/guitar-modes I found a more detailed explanation of the diatonic modes than what I provided above. I don't know that I agree with the presentation of everything on that page, but I indicate the main idea as:
2212221 [Ionian] Major scale
2122212 Dorian scale
1222122 Phrygian scale
2221221 Mixolydian scale
2212212 Lydian scale
2122122 Aeolian (Natural Minor) scale
1221222 Locrian scale
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale#Modes
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I wish that I understood some of this. 
but I get the feeling that I don't really need to 
Just want to play the fiddle
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of 
..... What was I saying???? 
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@Ferret: I think of music theory as being kind of like biology. You don't need to take biology classes to live. People lived long before there were biology classes. Biology is the study of life and how it works. Music theory is the study of music and how it works.
For some people the study of either biology or music theory is helpful and interesting. For others it's maybe just another pain in the butt. If ya don't need it and it isn't something you want to use, then just skip it and don't worry too much about it.
Honestly, I think you can do fine either way.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
RosinedUp said
Bzzzt. Time is up for filling in the blank. You will find the answer here.I did a web search for the terms: 2212221 rotate dorian
At http://cochranemusic.com/guitar-modes I found a more detailed explanation of the diatonic modes than what I provided above. I don't know that I agree with the presentation of everything on that page, but I indicate the main idea as:
2212221 [Ionian] Major scale 2122212 Dorian scale 1222122 Phrygian scale 2221221 Mixolydian scale 2212212 Lydian scale 2122122 Aeolian (Natural Minor) scale 1221222 Locrian scale See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale#Modes
Doesn't matter which scale you use, they all add up to 12.
I wonder if Paganini knew all this stuff, or did he even care. Or does anyone in here care. 
Many year's ago, there was a study done on the "Honey Bee". According to aeronautical mathematic's, due to weight and wing size proportion, the "Honey Bee" isn't supposed to be able to fly, but, he (the bee) doesn't know this, so he flie's anyway.
So much for theory, eh ? 
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DanielB said
@Ferret: I think of music theory as being kind of like biology. You don't need to take biology classes to live. People lived long before there were biology classes. Biology is the study of life and how it works. Music theory is the study of music and how it works.
For some people the study of either biology or music theory is helpful and interesting. For others it's maybe just another pain in the butt. If ya don't need it and it isn't something you want to use, then just skip it and don't worry too much about it.
Honestly, I think you can do fine either way.
No it's not a pain in the butt and, in no way, did I mean anything derogatory. It's just that, when you start your musical journey at 62, it's just too hard 
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of ..... What was I saying????
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Fiddlestix said
Many year's ago, there was a study done on the "Honey Bee". According to aeronautical mathematic's, due to weight and wing size proportion, the "Honey Bee" isn't supposed to be able to fly, but, he (the bee) doesn't know this, so he flie's anyway.
So much for theory, eh ?
A very good point 
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of ..... What was I saying????
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I don't think the question is whether someone can play without knowing theory. Clearly many people play quite well without it.
The question is whether someone will play better or worse or get more or less enjoyment for having learned theory. That is going to depend on the individual. I know the answer for me.
@Ferret:
On whether the concept of diatonic modes is too hard: I doubt that you have actually tried to understand it. Maybe you saw some numbers and some unfamiliar words and reacted by shutting them out. Maybe you were talked into the belief that it is too hard.
Once you understand the nature of major and minor scales, it is a rather small step to conceive of all the modes.
I think the level of difficulty is roughly that of learning the rules of a card game.
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Fiddlestix said
According to aeronautical mathematic's, due to weight and wing size proportion, the "Honey Bee" isn't supposed to be able to fly,
Oh, I didn't know you were an expert on "aeronautical mathematic's". Maybe you could quote us chapter and verse. Or would you say that you were just repeating some ignorant nonsense that you've heard?
Listen Mr. K B,,, It doesn't say anywhere in there that I did the study or that I am an expert. I'm about as much an expert on aeronautical mathematic's as you are on music or playing, for that matter.
http://phramick.wordpress.com/...../bees-law/
Now stfu. 
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Fiddlestix said
Now stfu.
So it's that you were just repeating some ignorant nonsense that you've heard.
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One thing about topics like this on this forum.. You never know whether you should break out the bandages or the popcorn..
@Ferret: You aren't too old. And you're a bright guy, so you could learn theory if you ever wanted to. But it isn't actually a mandatory subject you have to take to be able to play and play good. I've known plenty of excellent musicians who didn't know much theory in any formal sense.
Just sayin' though, you are definitely smart enough that if you ever decided you wanted or needed it, I have every confidence you'd understand it and learn it just fine.
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
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I suggest you both settle down a bit and as Pierre would suggest, "play nice" or this may end up getting closed to further comments.
"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein
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DanielB said
One thing about topics like this on this forum.. You never know whether you should break out the bandages or the popcorn..
I'd say popcorn
Hi Daniel
I'm sure I could learn it but I have so much on my plate ATM, apart from learning the violin, I've just started on micro invitro propagation ( I'm also a cert III Horticulturist ) and it also takes a lot of my time.
My original comment was only to say that it would be nice to be able to understand the topic, but reading the posts was a little daunting. I didn't mean to 'put the cat among the pigeons' as they say 
The main thing is that I'm having a great time learning the fiddle and to me, that is what matters.
Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of ..... What was I saying????
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Daniel wrote: "using the white keys, if you play the notes from C to C but leave out the notes F and B, that is a pentatonic scale. C major pentatonic."
So it seems that for the major pentatonic scales, the sequence of intervals between consecutive pitches (in semitones) is 22323. Here I write the names of the pitches in the C-major pentatonic with the interval sizes (again in semitones) between them: C(2)D(2)E(3)G(2)A(3)C.
There is a lot of information out there about pentatonic scales and their modes, and I find it very complex, confusing, and seemingly not standardized. But I find some tables showing the modes of the major pentatonic as rotations, just as I showed above for diatonic scales.
@ratvn: Could you comment about this table that I found at http://www.guitarnoise.com/for.....;t=21265 ?
============================================
Now you can create different modes from modal relationships based on the pentatonic scale. The Chinese have been doing just that for a long, long time - their root scale has five notes, while Western scales have seven. And just as we have seven modes, they have five:
C-D-E-G-A = Gong scale (our major pentatonic)
D-E-G-A-C = Quing Yu scale
E-G-A-C-D = Jiao scale
G-A-C-D-E = Zhi scale
A-C-D-E-G = Yu scale (our minor pentatonic)
The Japanese have similar scales, with names like Ritsu, Yo, etc.
=============================================
The Wikipedia article on pentatonic scales is not so good IMO, but it does show a table of modes similar to the one above:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P....._the_piano
So the grand result for the modes of the major pentatonic scale seems to be obtainable by rotation as follows:
22323 Major pentatonic
23232 Egyptian, Suspended
32322 Blues Minor
23223 Blues Major
32232 Minor pentatonic
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