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Bowing Help please
Two up bows
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Katie L
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June 11, 2022 - 7:43 am
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CC957D84-0FD4-4D3F-AB1D-73D5BF556DD4.jpegImage EnlargerPlease can someone tell me how to play this … thanks . Sorry the pic is the wrong way round not sure how to fix that 

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stringy
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June 11, 2022 - 8:05 am
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Either you dont take your bow off on the up stroke, just stop after the first then play the second, or its a misprint and they should be Martele strokes. Or maybe something else that the more theoretically inclined can enlighten you with, for me I just wouldnt lift the bow from the string.

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Katie L
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June 11, 2022 - 8:17 am
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Thanks stringy here I am practicing in my mum’s kitchen !!

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RDP
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June 11, 2022 - 11:57 am
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Pause for a moment during the upbow when you place the finger on E3 then continue the upbow.  Very much like a slur except there's a pause in the middle.

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Katie L
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June 11, 2022 - 5:10 pm
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Thanks RDP Vivaldi here I come !!😬

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SharonC
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June 11, 2022 - 11:42 pm
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@Katie L  Based on the picture, I'd just pause slightly between the two upbows.  Looks like the intent is to just beginning the next measure as a downbow, so upbows shouldn't sound like a slur nor a staccato.

Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.

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ELCBK
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June 12, 2022 - 12:34 am
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@Katie L -

Here's my understanding. 

DÉTACHÉ is usually considered the default bowing stroke if nothing else is notated, this means each note is a smooth bow change - NO pausing, NO stopping, NO lifting the bow.  The bow change does give the illusion of hearing a pause.

We also take into consideration changes may sometimes be necessary if you want to play the strong beats with a down bow.

For your example: BOTH notes are played on the same 'up bow' WITHOUT a deliberate pause or stopping.

  • Beamed notes are about rhythm (see phrasing, below). 
  • Two beamed eighth notes sound like saying, "One and"
  • There is NO STOPPING, NO LIFTING between the notes, but a lightening of pressure may seem like a slight hesitation/pause while preparing to articulate the 2nd note.  I would NOT go out of my way to make a noticeable 'pause'.
  • Articulate the beginning of the 2nd note with your hand/fingers - it only takes a slight squeeze movement to mark the beginning. 

Depending on the type of music played, you might have the option of playing other types of 'double up-bow strokes', like the different ones in this video.

Your example does NOT indicate any 'off string' strokes - so like the cello in this video. 

 

Phrasing enters the picture when you play like you say it - one way is to use 'Dynamics'

  • The 1st note in a 'beamed' pair can be considered the START OF A BEAT
  • 'One' = slightly more emphasis on the 1st note - play a little louder by more weight & bow speed. 
  • 'And' = slightly less emphasis on the 2nd note - play slightly softer by less weight & bow speed. 
  • BOTH notes are played for the same 'eighth note duration' of time. 

 

This video shows an example of VIVALDI - about Meter, Beat & Beaming

 

- Emily

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Katie L
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June 12, 2022 - 6:04 am
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Thanks Sharon and Emily !! Really good info. I’m really enjoying Autumn even tho it’s a really simple arrangement it’s completely different to anything I’ve tried to play. Might post a vid in my blog when I’ve got into it a bit more.. 

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RDP
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June 12, 2022 - 1:08 pm
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@ELCBK

If there isn't a slight pause between the two 8th notes, then it's a slur.  There's no notation for that in the score, just the 2 upbows in a row.

 

I think the intent was to articulate the 2 notes as 2 distinct notes but change the position on the bow from tip to heel without using a half note (or dotted rhythm note) to do it.

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Mouse
June 12, 2022 - 1:43 pm
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I have to agree with RDP on this one. It is basically 2 notes, but the bow direction is the same. It happens in a couple songs in Suzuki book 1. That is how the instructor said to do it. There is no slur marking, just two separate notes, with the same bow direction notation, so they are played with the bow going the same way. 

I was told that in cello lessons, too, by a different instructor. It makes sense, if you think about it. You can tell when a bow changes direction for each note. It sounds a tad different when you treat each note with their required beat(s) and then do the next note without changing bow direction.

There could be another reason a piece may be marked this way. It might set you up better for the next group of notes. 

But, the notes would be played the same as if you were changing bow direction, but you don't change bow direction. 

Suzuki Book 1, The Happy Farmer is a good example. 

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

Please ignore any typos. My typing ability on a real typewriter did not transfer to these device key pads.

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ELCBK
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June 12, 2022 - 5:36 pm
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@RDP -

I described 2 Up-bow eighth notes - counted 'One', 'And'

It's NOT counted 'One', 'And', 'Two' - which describes a different rhythm.

Just like when you play normal Détaché bowing, which is 'Up-bow', 'Down-bow' - it's NOT 'Up-bow', 'Pause', 'Down-bow'

If either of the 2 note's time value is cut short, with silence making up for the remainder of it's time - then you are playing Staccato, NOT Détaché (which is the default bowing).  Staccato bowing is notated with a dot above the note(s), in Classical music. 

...I believe you run the risk of crossing a fine timeline, if you set yourself up to think you have to add something - "a pause or stop", between beamed eighth notes or less.  It's important to play smoothly, with intentional phrasing. 

 

I did NOT describe this as a 'Slur' - there is NO bowing articulation for the 2nd note of a Slur

 

There are also refined forms of Détaché - with different names and characteristics. 

 

For Double Up-bows in Folk Music, do what fits the genre. 

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RDP
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June 13, 2022 - 4:15 pm
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ELCBK said
@RDP -

I described 2 Up-bow eighth notes - counted 'One', 'And'

It's NOT counted 'One', 'And', 'Two' - which describes a different rhythm.

Just like when you play normal Détaché bowing, which is 'Up-bow', 'Down-bow' - it's NOT 'Up-bow', 'Pause', 'Down-bow'

 

If either of the 2 note's time value is cut short, with silence making up for the remainder of it's time - then you are playing Staccato, NOT Détaché (which is the default bowing).  Staccato bowing is notated with a dot above the note(s), in Classical music. 

...I believe you run the risk of crossing a fine timeline, if you set yourself up to think you have to add something - "a pause or stop", between beamed eighth notes or less.  It's important to play smoothly, with intentional phrasing. 

 

I did NOT describe this as a 'Slur' - there is NO bowing articulation for the 2nd note of a Slur

 

There are also refined forms of Détaché - with different names and characteristics. 

 

For Double Up-bows in Folk Music, do what fits the genre. 

  

It's 2 notes.  The fact that they're barred doesn't change that -  they're 2 notes.

If you don't bow them as 2 notes, what you have is a slur.  There's no notation for a slur so the task is to articulate the 2 notes as 2 separate notes in the same bow stroke direction.  That takes a very tiny pause.

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ELCBK
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June 13, 2022 - 11:16 pm
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@RDP -

I NEVER said it wasn't 2 notes. 

Sorry you didn't understand I was trying to describe how the default bowing might be interpreted for this (even though both these notes are the same bowing direction), since nothing specific was notated.

The bottom line - BEAMED notes show a grouping of notes that represent ONE BEAT of rhythm

As far as I'm concerned, with nothing specified otherwise, you can bow it however you want to, as long as you don't lose the feeling of that ONE BEAT - it's NOT 2 'beats' of rhythm.

Most importantly, it has now become known that Katie's example is from Vivaldi's "Autumn".  This means I would take the Baroque context into consideration, as well as knowledge that each Concerto of Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" was a rich interpretation of a Sonnet, e.g., animals/birds, people, scenes, and moods - for choosing my bowing.   

 

Bowing terms, in themselves, can be confusing, so I've started a new thread to dig deeper into that, here:  Interpreting Bowing Notation & Terms Thread

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Gordon Shumway
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June 14, 2022 - 10:35 am
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Mouse said
There could be another reason a piece may be marked this way. It might set you up better for the next group of notes.

It clearly sets you up for a downbow on the first note of the next bar.

For the same purpose, instead of "down up up" you could also choose "down down up", depending on how comfortable you'd be with the bow distribution.

Also if it's very fast, down down up might be easier because you can cheat on the crotchet and play it staccato.

Andrew

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Mouse
June 14, 2022 - 10:46 am
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Thanks for affirming my thinking, @Gordon Shumway, helps me learn.

The Bumblebee Flies!

Please ignore any typos. My typing ability on a real typewriter did not transfer to these device key pads.

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