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I can finally now after over a year , hear when I am not hitting the notes in tune, sounds strange but at first when I played, under my ear it sounded correct, but on recording and playing back I was astonished to hear I was often flat. Now that I can actually hear when I am out of tune, is there any way apart from the frame of your left hand and constant repetition, of hitting the actual notes bang on first time, I find I often miss and have to slide very slightly into the note. I am not too bad in first position but in third It is more difficult, maybe because the fingers are slightly closer, any ideas would be welcome😱
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Hi stringy!
I'm at 16 months, now - so pretty much same with ear training.
Fiddlerman has great looping drones you can listen to while playing, to help with intonation - found under "Learning Tools" at the top of the page.
I also found William Fitzpatrick's series of 5 videos titled, "How to Achieve Perfect Intonation" on YouTube very helpful. I like how "pitch is not absolute" and intervals relate "across" strings to help you map out where to find your notes. Here's #5 in the series so you can see where he takes you.
I think we just learn to correct faster until it happens before we even realize it!
- Emily
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There's no substitute for slow scales and arpeggios.
There are a few things you can do just with the violin. You can check your intonation by playing a double-stop against an open string -- especially useful when the interval is a unison or an octave. You can also check some notes with natural harmonics, because finger placement on natural harmonics has to be precise.
For shifting practice, look into Whistler's "Introducing the Positions" and Yost's "Exercises for Change of Position". The Yost is now public domain and available on IMSLP.
I second the recommendation of practicing scales and arpeggios with a drone. Invest in a good electronic metronome that has a drone function. I use a Korg KDM-2 which can be set to drone on any note, with the A adjustable to a range of frequencies.
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Great answers thank you both, I am going to try all the suggestions, and hope it improves my playing. The video with the prof is excellent, the drone idea and double stop is also one I will start to use all the time.
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AndrewH said
There's no substitute for slow scales and arpeggios.
Knowing at least what scales and arpeggios sound like is the basis for everything.
There's even an anecdote about David Oistrakh doing a rehearsal then spending the two hours before the concert doing nothing but play slow scales because he wasn't happy with some of the intonation during the rehearsal.
I haven't the time to watch those 5 videos just now, but there are many techniques for intonating, depending on the note. Playing B C# on the A string (and analogously for E on the D string, etc) in tune is a matter of knowing your scales. Or arpeggios for the C and C#, but also simple intervals, see below. I used to play that B very flat until I spent a lot of time listening to it. There are some pieces for beginners in E minor that use it to advantage. It helps if you haven't spend too much time on cheap violins with high nuts.
Playing the D (on the A string) you can hear the beat with the D string's harmonic sympathising. With the E, you hear the beat with the E string (you don't have to keep the E string clear, but it's good technique - and you'll need it for some double-stopping). If you want F and F# on the A string, I often find it good to remember what the D string sounded like (or "accidentally" touch it, lol) and hear the minor or major 10th. For high notes on the E string you can often find the octave below on the A string then know your octaves. Then finally you synthesise all the methods into one (I assume - I don't pretend to have mastered that yet).
Intervals are good to be able to sing, but I can't do things like minor 6ths and diminished fifths, but often these are much easier to hear in the context of a piece of music and its harmonic progressions - especially simple baroque music.
Andrew
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Andrew, you hit the nail on the head with one of the things you wrote. I also have real trouble with the note b, I constantly play it flat, under the ear it sounds as though it’s ringing but when I play a recording back it’s inevitably flat, so I now play it slightly sharp which is difficult to do, at least for me because it sounds wrong when I am playing. I have also started to sing tunes and Play them at the same time and this works But again isn’t easy, it’s not like when I play guitar and sing which I don’t even need to think about. Good to know even Oistrakh had trouble with intonation ;). I have been playing a lot of chromatic scales lately as well. I have no trouble at all with the ringing notes, as you rightly point out it’s the intervals that cause problems. I had been told on another forum to play simple pieces one note at a time making sure each one is perfect which consigns the sound to memory, or is supposed to😬
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I'm not sure chromatic scales are a good idea, but it depends on how much experience you have.
Andrew
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@stringy -
Forgot I had this stashed away in my bookmarked videos.
Hope you find this helpful.
- Emily 
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Thanks Emily, very useful, as is all advice;)
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Somewhere there needs to be a discussion of electronic tuners (I've searched for "tuners", but all the posts seem to be about fine tuners). We need to add all the metronome- and tuner- discussion to the equipment section, @Fiddlerman. Should I be able to add categories there or not?
Are electronic tuners good or bad?
On the ukulele I used to tune the C string with a C5 tuning fork (cheap as chips from China on EBay or Amazon), then I used a variety of chords to get the uke approximately in tune (no compensated bridge). The guitar similar but different because without a perfect bridge the G and B strings had to be tuned according to the music's key.
But I use electronic tuners on the violin because I can't hear its open strings. My intonation, according to my teacher, is in general "perfect", although we are doing a lot of work on it too when double-stopping - so it's not that perfect - but open strings? No, can't hear them.
Like our ears, my Korg TM-70T hears harmonics as flat due to the lack of overtones. So far, so explicable.
But the opposite, I have yet to fathom why, happens when I play G4 and G5 (Mozart K301 bar 2). When I play them together so that the octave is beat-free, the Korg registers my G4 as accurate and my G5 as sharp. In theory the G5 must have fewer overtones than the G4 and thus register flat. Surely the Korg is not expecting the higher note to be flat from having fewer overtones? That would be double-guessing! And if that were the case, it would register a harmonic as OK, not flat.
What is happening for them to be beat-free is the G5's fundamental is the same frequency as the G4's first overtone. But I don't see anything following from that that explains the Korg's behaviour. That there are also a whole load of other overtones beating together may be part of the answer.
This would be a question for violinist com, but I quit them.
If we ditch our electronic tuners 'cos they're bad, there's no problem, lol!
Andrew
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Sorry, Gordon, members cannot create categories or forum rooms. You can start a topic called Metronomes and Tuners in the Equipment forum room as a holding place while waiting to see if that specific forum room will be added. Just give it a precise topic title, that will help it to be identified.
Also, in the description below the topic title, state what you are specifically hoping the topic will be. I don't think you are looking for pros and cons of using them; which is what the only topics I remember reading about tuners was about. I think you are looking for use and suggestions, the equipment itself, etc, not the pros and cons of using them, tuners, not metronomes. That might help to keep it on track, might, 😂.
I think that if the forum room is going to be added, it should not be titled specifically for violin. It should have Violin/Viola/Cello or not mention the instrument at all. Otherwise it will be considered that it is violin specific. Maybe just call it Instrument Accessories, ie Tuners, Metronomes, etc. That name leaves this forum room open for other things that might pop up. The subject does not fit recording, repairs, etc.
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Mouse said
Sorry, Gordon, members cannot create categories or forum rooms. You can start a topic called Metronomes and Tuners in the Equipment forum room as a holding place while waiting to see if that specific forum room will be added. Just give it a precise topic title, that will help it to be identified.
Also, in the description below the topic title, state what you are specifically hoping the topic will be. I don't think you are looking for pros and cons of using them; which is what the only topics I remember reading about tuners was about. I think you are looking for use and suggestions, the equipment itself, etc, not the pros and cons of using them, tuners, not metronomes. That might help to keep it on track, might, 😂.
I think that if the forum room is going to be added, it should not be titled specifically for violin. It should have Violin/Viola/Cello or not mention the instrument at all. Otherwise it will be considered that it is violin specific.
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There's a forum room called Equipment, but it only contains categories like Violin.
Tuners or Metronomes would be new categories. Putting them under specific instruments wouldn't be right.
Andrew
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@Gordon Shumway See my edited reply above. 😁 You must have posted while I was doing one of the many edits. 😂😂😂
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@Gordon Shumway I just sent @Fiddlerman a PM about it.
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Mouse said
. Maybe just call it Instrument Accessories, ie Tuners, Metronomes, etc. That name leaves this forum room open for other things that might pop up. The subject does not fit recording, repairs, etc..
Yes, I think that's the best idea.
Andrew
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