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I am doing Fiddlerman's 35 Day Practice Challenge
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (1 votes) 
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Mouse
July 11, 2022 - 5:22 pm
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So, I changed things up. I wanted to see how I would do with just picking up my violin and playing whatever I wanted to play. 

I was very surprised and pleased. I was able to just play. Almost always started on my home base, first position fingering. I never got so lost that I needed my tuner to get bck opto hime base. It felt really good and encouraging. 

I still have no room for my cello. Getting there. I might just start the 35 days over again because I have had to put the challenge for my cello on hold for so long. I thought our moving things, replacing things, painting, etc would go more quickly.

But, I am so pleased with how the challenge to improve my intonation is working. I will have to do it with paying attention to bowing. It helps if I can concentrate in one thing at a time, so I am not slacking off on my bowing and not disregarding it, just not trying anything fancy,

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 11, 2022 - 5:47 pm
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I believe that means the challenge is a success for you (so far).  thumbs-up

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Mouse
July 11, 2022 - 6:20 pm
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@RDP I think it is a success. There is something about doing a challenge. It keeps you going, or at least for me. I think recording it here, in Learning, also kept me motivated to keep going. I still have a few days. I will do it again, later for bowing. I won't start that until my cello challenge is completed. 

I really appreciate your following along and commenting. It really helps. 😁

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 11, 2022 - 8:30 pm
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You doing the challenge helped me too.  It forced me to look even deeper and do more investigation into what I was doing with a eye toward solving rather than being frustrated over the problems I was having.

 

I figured out what my basic problem was, started doing more work on intonation specifically, began putting in even more time on scales, "invented" a new practice exercise routine for fingering/intonation, and more.

All because of you doing the challenge and blogging it.

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Mouse
July 11, 2022 - 8:50 pm
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I am pleased it is helping others. I am going to post about the cello challenge more, when I get back on it. I will probably update the violin progress, also. Like I said, I plan on doing another challenge focusing on bowing.

Of, course, this challenge is not completed yet.

Since this is a learning blog for myself and others, I figured it is best in the Learning section.

 

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 14, 2022 - 5:49 pm
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Well, today wasn't as good as the recent past days. But, not as bad as when I started the challenge. I will continue to plug along.

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 17, 2022 - 9:53 pm
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I did the required time in two sessions today. I did it in the morning and then again early this evening. Neither was very good, intonation wise, but the evening was better. I added paying more attention to bowing. I think that is what is affecting the intonation. It is time I start trying to improve this also, even though my next go round with the challenge will be exercises to straighten up my bowing. I think my shoulder joints are bit tight. 

I do not think that is what affected my intonation issue, entirely. It did add to it. Again, I was not bowing willy nilly, I was just paying more attention to intonation. 

My intonation has improved, and I can tell when I am off. I can usually tell if it is flat or sharp. Before, when I noticed it was off, I only knew that. Had no clue as to whether it was flat or sharp. 

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 20, 2022 - 9:20 am
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So, my 35 day violin intonation challenge has ended. I do feel my intonation has improved.

Is it where I would like it to be? No.

Would I have achieved what I did achieve without doing it as a challenge? No. I achieved more in this 35+ day challenge than I did in the 3-4 years I have been tackling my violin. I went over the 35 days by a few days. I needed the challenge to, well, challenge myself formally.

Did reporting on this in the forum help me stay with the program? You bet. It probably would not help everyone. Some people may not be comfortable reporting about progress and/or stumbling blocks on the forum. Some may be able to stick to the challenge without a record on the forum. I am usually not a forum reporting person. I have done much more with posting on this forum than anywhere else. 

I found that members following along and commenting was encouraging and helped me keep going. Thanks to @RDP, for his commenting so regularly. 

I am going to start another challenge. I am going to continue working on intonation. It is still inconsistent and I lose it if any small speed is used. I am also going to restart my cello challenge from scratch. I have regained my space I need to play my cello! 😁😁😁😁

I will start a new topic when I am ready to start my new challenges. It was commented, when I started, that these should be in my blog. It is not the purpose of my posting these to be just a journal. My purpose is to get encouragement in my learning and maybe provide encouragement to others to try creating a challenge as a tool. This would not be seen much in my blog. This is a learning tool I am using.

I am going to take a little break from doing the challenge and play my violin and paying closer attention to my intonation. When I am ready, I will select some bowing exercises, information to read, and start my 35 day challenge to work on bowing. I will also be creating a plan for my cello intonation.

🐭 

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 20, 2022 - 5:15 pm
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I'm happy that you feel your intonation has improved.  Mine has not done as well as I'd hoped.  However, after watching these 2 videos I now know why.  I've watched them before but didn't have a solid enough knowledge/practical base to understand what they were saying.

 

This first video helped me with hand frame.  Tension in my left hand is preventing me from getting a good tone and limiting my fingering ability to correct my intonation.  Some of the things he pointed out are helping me modify my left hand grip and finger "resting" position off/above the strings.  This is going to take a lot of very careful work on my part because it puts a huge strain on my arm/wrist because I'm so stiff.  I've already tilted my violin more to help get my fingers more square to the strings but I'm still limited in how long I can play before it gets painful.

 

This next video made me realize a few things.  First is that I'm about where I should be as far as intonation goes because Suzuki 2 picks that up from the beginning of that book.  Secondly, I was right when I thought that intonation isn't worked on hard enough in the early lessons because the idea is to get the student learning how to read music and then just play more and more pieces.  This is basically lying to them about "how well they're doing in their playing" when the reality is that they can read music and are only learning what the dots, marks, and squigqles on the staff mean.  I think that a better approach would be to focus on learning to read music and getting the notes correct from the beginning.  Bowing technique is learned from scales and practical exercises but intonation can only come from correct finger position and a good hand frame.  Those things are basically ignored in the early lessons in favor of "fixing it later."  This video brought all of that together for me.

The tonalization techniques she uses are simple and easy to use and learn.  As she demonstrates in the video, by "fishing" for that ringing tone for each note you can get the violin to sing sweetly.  Which is what I'm trying to achieve.

 

The video also made me think about how B is considered a ringing note even though it really isn't.  Most wolf tones are on B, mine definitely is.  There's probably a physical correlation between the wolf tone and the fact that B really isn't a ringing note that causes the wolf to swallow whatever tone the B can be produced on any specific violin.  I don't know if it's true, or even if it can be proven true or false, but I'm thinking that every violin has a wolf tone, we just can't hear it unless it's really bad.

Anyway, knowing that I'm about where I should be when it comes to intonation, I'll try to stop stressing so much about how awful my intonation is.  I'll also continue to work on getting Gossec's Gavotte done.  In the process I'll use it and the Suzuki Book 2 tonalization stuff (plus RDV's composite G and C major scale) to begin learning the intonation techniques I should have learned months ago.  I'm considering getting the book of fingering exercises that the guy in video 1 uses too.

Maybe, in a few months I'll be a better player than I am now.  I doubt I can be worse.  My violin definitely can smell fear too.

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July 20, 2022 - 6:18 pm
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I am fascinated how you are able to nail everything! Your thinking, as far as I see, is pretty accurate. My main complaint and dissatisfaction with all the lessons I have ever had, my last instructor to a lesser degree, was to plug along with songs. I was expecting scales and intonation work, proper positions for hand, both arms, fingers, etc. Nada. Just plug along with songs and never keep with a song until you can actually play it, even after telling each instructor I need to go slow, repeating lessons over and over is not a problem, I have to learn something really well before adding to it,  and I am in no hurry. It was wasted. They agreed but did it the quick and dirty way. 

Like I said, I think my intonation has improved, but it is not quite there yet. 

I am going to watch those two videos later. It seems to me, we both seem to think alike in how we have to learn this, so I think those two videos will probably suit me. Many don't. Others need something different. 

I did grab my violin down today while dinner was going and just played. It was pretty good. Really good? No, but pretty good is a huge improvement.

Thanks for all this input.

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 20, 2022 - 7:38 pm
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Mouse said
I am fascinated how you are able to nail everything! 

I throw darts at post-its on the wall.  "Mouse probably has this problem, and that one, and that one too..."  laugh

 

The reality is probably more like you and I are at about the same level and we're both looking for the same thing.  I also teach beginners in a different field so I understand that they don't know anything and that it's my job to teach them everything.  Skipping stuff isn't a good teaching technique and could, in certain instances, get someone seriously injured if not killed.  It certainly doesn't lower the frustration level after someone realizes how they've been led on by someone they trusted.

Teaching kids is different than adults too.  Kids have enough growing and coordination issues that skipping a few things while they work on basics is fine.  They understand that they're not going to be a star at tetherball until after they've played it for awhile and grow some more.  Same for the violin.  Or baseball. Or...

Adults however need to be told why.  If you don't have an answer to that question then it only tells the adult that you don't know the answer.  In that case, why are you trying to teach what you don't know?  It's worse when you ignore an adult's concerns about what they're being taught because what they're really telling you is that they don't understand.  If they don't understand, they cannot progress even if the lesson plan goes on to the next topic.

 

Blah, enough of that dreary subject.

 

In the RDV video, she talks about getting that ringing note and shows some exercises she has her student's use.  The underlying point she never actually says (why?) is that you only get that ringing sweet intonation when you stop the string at the EXACT point that creates it.  Even if the tuner says you're smack dab right on the note, your violin can be telling you that you're not.

Other issues are finger pressure.  Neither of them talked about that in the videos either, but if you put too much pressure on your finger you smash them and they spread wider  This changes the point where the string is stopped and is unreliable for repeat fingering.  Minimal finger pressure to stop the string on the EXACT spot for a sweet tone is the ticket.  Or so I've come to believe at this point in time.  That may change as I learn more.  However, the hand frame fingering technique from the first video coupled with the tonalization exercises from the second video seems to be the way to go.

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July 20, 2022 - 7:52 pm
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Other issues are finger pressure. 

Oh, wow! I do smash the strings! Thanks! I am going to add that to my "things to look out for."

I think you are right that we are about in the same place.  

I throw darts at post-its on the wall.  "Mouse probably has this problem, and that one, and that one too..."  laugh

That is funny. I am afraid that I would miss the post its completely. My dart throwing is really bad. Tetherball!? I can do that. We had a tetherball in our back yard when we grew up. That was fun, actually. 

I got a scales book and found a bowing exercise book that I bought way back when. I also have Fiddlerman's string etudes to use. I think I need to find a song that has sections that are scales, but not those 8th and 16th note scale runs. I am not ready for that. Even though I know you can slow them down and treat them as quarter notes for practicing and learning, my brain sees a lot of black notes and I am not able to play them slowly. I can't tackle that issue right now, so I am looking through my books. I know, my brain works in mysterious ways!

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 20, 2022 - 7:53 pm
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Ok, I couldn't resist digging more at the poor teaching thing.

 

The Suzuki lesson plan is all about transferring as much musical data as possible.  To do this it concentrates on reading and understanding musical notation at the expense of playing what you're reading "well."  I know what the dots, squiggles, slashes, hashtags, letters, and so on in the book mean.  I still cannot play "well" even at the end of the first book.

 

Which, upon reflective analysis, indicates that the book isn't about teaching me to play "well" it's about teaching me how to read and respond to musical notation.  Which, to me, misses the point.  I don't care if all I can play is the "cupcakes" song*, I'd like it to sound like I'm a violin virtuoso instead of a 3 year old having a screaming fit.

 

*Cupcakes song:

My mom's cupcakes are the best

Better taste than all the rest

Golden spongecake topped with cream

Each one tastes just like a dream

My mom's cupcakes are the best

Better taste than all the rest.

 

Wait, are you like everyone else who thinks that the lyrics for that piece are supposed to be about the doppler shift effect of the light of a distant sun?  bunny-headbang

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July 20, 2022 - 7:56 pm
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Mouse said

Other issues are finger pressure. 

Oh, wow! I do smash the strings! Thanks! I am going to add that to my "things to look out for."

I think you are right that we are about in the same place.  

I throw darts at post-its on the wall.  "Mouse probably has this problem, and that one, and that one too..."  laugh

That is funny. I am afraid that I would miss the post its completely. My dart throwing is really bad. Tetherball!? I can do that. We had a tetherball in our back yard when we grew up. That was fun, actually. 

I got a scales book and found a bowing exercise book that I bought way back when. I also have Fiddlerman's string etudes to use. I think I need to find a song that has sections that are scales, but not those 8th and 16th note scale runs. I am not ready for that. Even though I know you can slow them down and treat them as quarter notes for practicing and learning, my brain sees a lot of black notes and I am not able to play them slowly. I can't tackle that issue right now, so I am looking through my books. I know, my brain works in mysterious ways!

  

The first video mentions a book with exercises that start simple and progress from there.  A.  A-A1.  A-A1-A.  And so on for repetition until you know exactly where the finger positions are and can pick up the pace for playing them.  It might be Sevcik but I'm not sure.  He mentions it in the video and shows a page from it.

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July 21, 2022 - 12:13 am
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Correct 

Sevcik    op 1 book 1 

Great exercise 

https://fiddlerman.com/wp-cont.....Violin.pdf

Only do the first l line until your good with your intonation,  then do the second line and add to first line

Start one note per bow really checking your intonation ( I personally use the app Intonia very visually easy to see the pitch error, use the normal mode to start then progress to the tuning mode its 5x tighter to the pitch) then after a bit 2 notes per bow then 4 to 8 to 16 to 24 or to what ever bowing pattern your comfortable with.

Note: bow speed stays the same for 1 note to 24 notes

It works

 

Mark

Master the Frog and you have mastered the bow.

Albert Sammons

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July 21, 2022 - 7:44 am
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Thanks, @Mark 

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 21, 2022 - 5:32 pm
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There's some bow technique involved as well, which I didn't mention.  I've been trying to get good intonation from A4 that sounds like EO.  Messing around I found that a very light quick bow stroke gives me the same note as the open E with good tone and it doesn't sound like a "beginner" played it.  There's no volume even when I bow next to the bridge, but the tone is there.  If I use more bow pressure to try and get volume the tone turns into the beginner sound.

If I use that same light/quick bow stroke method for the other fingerings, I almost get there.  Ringing notes but still poor intonation.  I have the original Dominants that came with my violin and I'm going to change back to them.  If that moves my overall intonation in a better direction then I'll look into a set of brighter strings rather than the warm ones I've been playing on.

So a breakthrough might come from strings that the violin likes more than the ones I have now plus a lot more practice at finger accuracy.

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July 22, 2022 - 1:07 pm
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@RDP I just did my violin and viola and I used a lighter finger when doing the strings. It did seem to sound better. I wasn't consistent. I will add fingering to bowing when I start again. My goal will be better bowing and fingering of the strings. My intonation was better today than before I did the challenge, still not consistent. My viola was much better.

I think that one problem with my intonation with the violin, and I noticed it today, is the way I was taught with the few lessons I had that actually dealt with it. I was told to crunch the second finger up to the first finger to get the B flat, F, C and G. Then to crunch it right up to the third finger for the B, F#, C#, and G#. That is actually not true. I don't have to crunch, or smash, as one teacher said. Teaching in generalities does not really work when preciseness is needed, 😂.

I do have problems with my fourth finger usage. I really think I need in person lessons to get the hold, fingering and shifting right. I have issues holding the violin when shifting. I also have issues with the 1st and 4th strings. It would be helpful having someone with me, to get that right. 

Also, if classical music did not scare me off, all those black, notes make me rush, I would be able to do with the 2nd Suzuki book. I am really not into fiddle music. I would really like to play more melodic tunes. 

🐭

The Bumblebee Flies!

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July 22, 2022 - 3:19 pm
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The Red Desert Violin video I posted earlier has a "combined" G major/C major scale in it for intonation practice which does a lot of 4th finger work. I also do a 4th finger on every string when practicing basic scales to give the little guy a daily workout.

The other video about hand frame had me change my setup.   I have more tilt than I used to.  I think it's too much because my bow on E is straight up vertical but until I get more flexibility in my wrist, it's what I have to work with.  With the extra tilt not only is my hand more able to cup the neck with less finger angle to the strings, my fingers arch better over the strings and I'm up on my tips more than I used to be.  I'm also able to keep from touching the other strings so they can do the sympathetic vibration thing.  RDV mentions it when she plays D3(G) and her G string vibrates in harmony with her D3.  I reasoned that if she was touching the G string simultaneously with her 3rd finger on D, the G string wouldn't be able to do that and her intonation wouldn't be very good.

That was a "lightbulb" moment.

I used to have to do the mash fingers 2 and 3 together thing too or I'd never be on the note.  Usually I was low on 2 and high on 3 even overlapping my fingers because there wasn't enough room between the 2 note positions on the string.  Now that I'm up on my tips, that's not happening so much.  Also, I've watched so many videos I don't remember which one it was in but one of them had a finger pressure drill that went something like: On a scale of 1-10 figure out how much pressure you need to get that fuzzy whistle, then how much pressure to touch the fingerboard, then what's the minimum pressure you need to use to stop the string and get the note.  That gave me the thought that I only need "just enough pressure" to stop the string, not drill my fingers into the fingerboard.

Ode to Joy has several descending/ascending scales in it.  Plus it's simple to learn.  Fiddlerman has the sheet music.

I'm doing a lot of short audio recordings to listen for intonation changes.  I have to tell you that when I first got that 4th finger E to sound like the open E, I was so shocked I literally just sat there with my mouth open.  It's not perfect because it's very muted, but I can reliably repeat it.  Which means it's a start on the right path.

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