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Is clear intonation physically possible?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (6 votes) 
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Kevin M.
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It's really not that bad. It just seems that way in the metric system.

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RosinedUp

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picklefish said
The book says consider A and Bflat. The distance between these two notes is approximately 60 vibrations. The spatial distance is only 2 millimeters.

Hmmm ... not understanding that. 

Even all the way near the end of the fingerboard, the distance between semitones is still 3mm.  You would have to go past the end of the fingerboard, more than three octaves away from the nut, to reach a place where there is only 2mm between semitones.  That point is about 35mm from the bridge.

The difference between A_5 and Bb_5 is 52.3 cycles/sec.

Since I can't be wrong, it seems the Herr Flesch is in error.

Does it say which A and Bb he is talking about, and on which string?

This is at least the second time this has come up.  Can you scan that page and post it?

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RosinedUp

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RosinedUp said 
This is at least the second time this has come up.  Can you scan that page and post it?

Never mind scanning it.  I found it on google books by googling for: flesch error fingering mm

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RosinedUp

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picklefish said
The book says consider A and Bflat. The distance between these two notes is approximately 60 vibrations. The spatial distance is only 2 millimeters.

I see from an online copy that he is considering A_5 and Bb_5 on the A string.  Those are at the 17th stop (122.9 mm from the bridge) and the 18th stop (116.0 mm from the bridge), the nut being the 0th stop (328 mm from the bridge), so that the distance between those pitches  is actually close to 6.9 mm.

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Picklefish
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the copy I have is illustrated on the E string fingers 2 and 2h or 3L depending on preference. But I think that the point is accuracy = the area of a pin head and its impossible. of course the higher towards the bridge you go the more infinestible it becomes. Im sure you are accurate and I doubt he was a mathmetician since his math is the easily divisible guessy kind. lol.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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RosinedUp

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picklefish said 
his math is the easily divisible guessy kind. lol.

I don't mind that, except it seems he is off by a factor of more than 3 (2mm vs. 6.9mm).  And he chooses an example that is kind of close to the extreme.

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Picklefish
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impossible is still impossible no matter how close you come to possible. I will fire off a letter to the publisher advising them of their mistake. I think the author is dead so any real hope of correction is lost.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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TerryT
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It is apparently impossible on my violin. That's why I am learning vibrato!!
lumpy-2134

I am amazed at how old people of my age are.....

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Picklefish
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TerryT said
It is apparently impossible on my violin. That's why I am learning vibrato!!
lumpy-2134

this may be why Suzuki doesnt address vibrato till book 4. lol.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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cdennyb
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LOL on you guys...

 

I've always maintained that vibrato can cover up a multitude of errors , even very very tiny ones!

 

roflolroflolroflolroflolroflol

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Fiddlestix
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10 mm = 1 cm = 3/8" approx. Of course you're going to hear a difference in tone. I find it hard to believe that you guy's are actually trying to split hair's. There's no one in this forum that play's or is capable of playing within 1/30 th of a mm.

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Oliver
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Maybe the 1/30 thing is doable if one has very sharp fingers.  Yet another genetic failure to keep me off the concert stage.  (Any band instrument with real notes might have been a better choice.)  I thought notes were good if they sounded good.  Live and learn.duncecapduncecapduncecap

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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Fiddlestix
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RosinedUp said

RosinedUp said 
This is at least the second time this has come up.  Can you scan that page and post it?

Never mind scanning it.  I found it on google books by googling for: flesch error fingering mm

I'm not to sure about someone who dig's up a dead horse of 7 mo's and then quote's themself.

Playing in exact / perfect tune is physically impossible for a human. Not saying he's not human, but even Fiddlerman has hit note's out of tune at time's, i've seen it in a couple of his  video demo's, it show's by the expression on his face.

So many of us in here and everywhere play out of tune, nobody cares. We post a video and make several mistake's in intonation, bowing problem's, right arm problem's, left wrist problem's to name a few and what do we get ?

 

Wow, so and so, you're doing great, keep up the good work.

A statement like that tell's me that it's acceptable it's ok to be off key. We do the best we can do.

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DanielB
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Much as I find the topic of considering music in terms of the physics and math involved fascinating, in practice, utter precision isn't really needed and may even be less than desirable as an ideal.

Auto-tune effects can make any singer sound "perfect".  But I don't know many people who think highly of that sound, other than perhaps as a novelty effect that may fit well in certain limited contexts.  To me personally, it sounds "dead" and tedious.  No feel, no color.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, the complexities involved in getting the intonation "perfect" would be exacting to the point where I doubt it would be practical as an ideal for anyone.  Even if it were attainable, other than in the equal tempered system, there would be some debate over what precise frequency actually was the "correct" one for some notes, since what was considered correct varied a bit between periods, regions, etc. 

I have a reasonably good ear, and would tend to side with Oliver in usually being able to tell when someone is playing even a bit "out of tune".  But other than long notes sounded in unison, or passages where instruments are playing chords in unison, it will not be all that noticeable to an average listener and it does not detract from a piece of music being enjoyable to listen to. 

If you listen to almost any singer that is really good when they are singing "a capella", you may note that some of their notes are "off".  They do it intentionally because it can sound better that way, and give more feel or color where they want it.  I doubt that most of them, even the best, are actually conscious of precisely how many cycles per second the frequency of each note is while they are performing.

To redirect to the original post, I wouldn't choose either option A or B.  It is only really necessary to be sufficiently close that it sounds good in context, and I consider it overly harsh to just pigeonhole shifting a pitch, sliding or using vibrato or any other sort of embellishment as "evasions". 

If anything, I consider many of the players on this forum to be overly obsessed with their intonation.  When they play, they sound good!  I think of it as only really being something that needs a hard focus in practice if one is out so far that it does not sound good.  "Watch your intonation!" gets said in critique here almost as much as the ministrations of the "bow police".  LOL  It is an easy point to pick, because one can pretty much count on at least some spots maybe being possible to be a bit tighter on the pitch, especially with people who may not have been playing long and who haven't developed much of that "musician's ear" yet.

I feel that playing well is more a matter of sounding good and the music being enjoyable than of being "perfect". 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Oliver
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Playing the violin "out of tune" is much safer than boo-boos with other instruments.  The violin offers countless number of excuses and rationales (including global warming).

dancing

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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RosinedUp

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Fiddlestix said

RosinedUp said

RosinedUp said 
This is at least the second time this has come up.  Can you scan that page and post it?

Never mind scanning it.  I found it on google books by googling for: flesch error fingering mm

I'm not to sure about someone who dig's up a dead horse of 7 mo's and then quote's themself.

Which part of the police officers' qualifications were you unable to pass: mental or physical?

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Fiddlestix
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Actually if you want the truth of the matter it was the physical part. I was 1/4" too short to join the police force, in 1965 the minimum height requirement I could find was 5'8",, I was 5'7 3/4". Now it doesn't matter how tall you are.  hats_off

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DanielB
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Maybe it is just me, but this sort of discussion always seems to have some elements of

"How dast anyone think of painting a landscape when even one tree has all those leaves that would have to be painted???"

LOL

Might be better to just play.  Keep playing.  Keep trying to make it sound a little better every time.  And then just see where we get, and even if it is never perfect, we'll at least have had a good time trying.

A baby might never learn to walk, if they stopped to consider all the physics involved. 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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RosinedUp

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DanielB said 
Might be better to just play.

For you maybe.  For others maybe.  Not for me.

Music theory and physical understanding of music exists for a reason.  To "just play" is to ignore all of that and to me is outright impoverishment.

Each one has to decide on his own path.  Not everyone finds beauty in the same things or reaches competence in the same way.

If you have better results doing it your way, I am happy for you, and I am happy for you to share your methods. 

Neither your ways nor mine are going to work for everyone.

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DanielB
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Music was played before there was physical understanding of it or music theory, so both of those developed from the study of music as it was played and what sounded pleasing.  As such, I personally wouldn't go so far as to consider playing before one has a perfect understanding of such things as "impoverishment".  But that is just my own point of view of course.

And you are certainly entitled to your own point of view as well.

I agree that there is no "one best way" that will work for everyone, so "To each their own."

Best wishes to you in your endeavors as well.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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