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Key Signature Question
What is the purpose of this?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (2 votes) 
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RosinedUp

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September 2, 2014 - 4:16 pm
Member Since: September 7, 2012
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Music terminology is a mess.  People use the same terms to mean different things.

What is it for a piece to be "in X"? 

For some, it means that the written key signature is X.  But then the set of notes used may physically indicate a different key signature.  For others, it means that the tonic of the piece is X.  I would prefer it to mean that the scale of the piece is X, since stating the scale gives the most information. 

For a piece in a major scale, all four meanings come out the same.  I believe the ambiguity is perpetuated because it is tolerable in the context of major scales.

For the score in question, the written key signature is that of G major or E minor.   But the notes used are exactly those of D major or B minor.  The tonic, if there is any, of the melody is E, and the tonic chord if any is Em; the piece is anomalous in that it has a center but doesn't really resolve to anything.  If there is a tonic, then the scale is E Dorian, since it uses exactly the notes of D major and the tonic is E. 

I avoid saying that a piece is "in X" because it often doesn't mean anything definite.

If people aren't clear about their meanings, they can go talking past each other forever without any progress toward shared understanding. 

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ratvn
Kent, Washington USA

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September 2, 2014 - 4:50 pm
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Uzi said
@ratvn Sounds pretty reasonable except this:

So in the tune, it's not in Bm since there is no A#, nor Em as there is no D# either. 

There is no A# in Bm and no D# in Em.

For example, the Bm (natural minor/Aolian) contains all of the same notes as DMaj:

B C# D E F# G A 

For Em:

E F G# A B C D, which is probably correct (except all the C's in the song are C# i. e. augmented 6th). 

I'm not making any judgements about what the "right" answer is, it's just something I observed and wondered about the reasoning behind it.  

PS:

According to Chordify these are the chords: chordify.net

@Uzi, you're correct and your points are well made. I made a mistake there, or rather not complete, my bad. And yes, we're having these discussion to learn as I'm a beginner and would love to learn from you all.

''So in the tune, it's not in Bm since there is no A#, nor Em as there is no D# either. 

There is no A# in Bm and no D# in Em''.

Yes, you're absolutely right that there is no A# in "natural" Bm, and no D# in "natural" Em, but there is in "harmonic" Bm and Em.

So I stand corrected that the sentence should be "it's not in harmonic Bm since there is no A#, nor harmonic Em as there is no D#". Sorry, my bad.

 

Here is some from wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_minor

E minor (Em, Mim) is a minor scale based on the note E. The E natural minor scale (scale degree 1 scale degree 2 scale degree 3 scale degree 4 scale degree 5 scale degree 6scale degree 7) consists of the pitches E, F, G, A, B, C, and D. The E harmonic minor scale (scale degree 1 scale degree 2 scale degree 3 scale degree 4 scale degree 5 scale degree 6 scale degree 7) contains the natural 7, D, rather than the flatted 7, D – to align with the major dominant chord, B7 (B D F A).

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_minor

B minor is a minor scale consisting of the pitches B, C, D, E, F, G, and A. Its key signature consists of two sharps. The harmonic minor raises the note A to A. Changes needed for the melodic and harmonic versions of the scale are written with accidentals as necessary.

 

And the reason behind the switching from "natural" minor to "harmonic" minor is from the provided link from my previous post, here is an excerpt:

"http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/chord-theory/minor-key-theory.html

Generally speaking, the cadence is what reinforces the home key and mostly refers to the V-I transition in a chord progression. In the major scale, the last note is one semitone below the root and it's called the leading tone, as the name suggests, it leads nicely into the tonic (root note). In the key of C major it is the B note. The "five chord" in a major key contains this leading tone and has a strong pull back to the tonic. This strengthens and highlights the key. In the key of C, the G sounds like it wants to resolve back to C. If we make the five chord dominant (G7) then this "pull" becomes even stronger.

The leading tone in the natural minor scale however is a whole tone below the root and it doesn't have such a strong pull. For composers this makes it a bit harder to really establish the key. The five chord in a minor key doesn't have the same effect as it does in a major key because the leading tone is not as close to the tonic. You can easily try this yourself. Play a i iv v progression in the key of A minor. The chords are Amin Dmin and Emin. The five chord (Emin) sounds Ok and resolves reasonably well back to the A minor but it's still fairly weak sounding.

Harmonic minor

The solution to improving this weaker sounding cadence in minor keys is to raise the leading tone of the natural minor by a half step which results in a stronger pull back to the tonic. Using A natural minor as an example, this would mean making the G become G# which in turn will make the E minor chord, or the V chord, become E major. This raised seventh gives us a new scale formula 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 and we call it the harmonic minor scale.
For an example, a very common minor chord progression is the i - bVII - bVI - V. In the key of A minor you might recognise these chords used in many songs, A min, G maj, F maj, E maj. This chord progression is all in natural minor except for the V chord (E maj) which temporarily switched to harmonic minor for the V-i cadence. If you were to solo or create melodies for this progression then you would use the harmonic minor scale over the E chord and natural minor for the rest."

 

We like to talk about chord progression for the mentioned tune. Let's take the first 2 measures:

BGE F#E|BGE F#GA

The tune sits on the B minor scale, starts with a B so sticking in a Bm chord (B D F#) makes sense, however, second note of the melody, G would clash with Bm F# note as it's minor second interval, likewise, the third note, E, would clash with either D or F# (major second). So for my choice, an Em chord (E G B) seems to fit better. What do you think?

Further more, the chord progression for the two bars could be Em Bm Em D, or Em D Em D. i-v i-VII or i-VII i-VII, (E Dorian tonic swinging back to the root of the major scale in which it sits) which I think fit the E Dorian scheme better than a B minor.

What do you think? Awaiting for correction.

Thanks

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coolpinkone
California, the place of my heart
September 2, 2014 - 6:07 pm
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wow.. Robert, nice work.   I am impressed... I wish you have been around to help me with this in my basic theory class.   It is very interesting and cool to hear the harmonic minor discussion outside the class in real life.   :)  .....these are the questions that were on my final and of course we had to play ascending, descending melodic.... on the piano for the final.  I hated playing it on the piano but in hindsight it was the best way to see how it worked out, even with the cadence chords.. etc.  

Reading your thoughts is like a refresher.  Thank you for taking time to clarify.

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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Uzi
Georgia

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September 2, 2014 - 9:29 pm
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@ratvn (Ken) I wasn't trying to argue with you or embarrass you , I was just pointing out one small error in one point of the many points you made.  Generally speaking, in non-classical music when someone says simply Em, for example, they will be referring to the natural minor or aolian mode which is just the same scale as the notes of the major scale six notes below.  As in the case of Em the scale starts on the E which is the sixth note of the G scale, and has identical note values of the G Maj scale.

I comfortable calling it Em as the transcriber did, but it's not a 1-4-5 chord progression that blues players like myself of rock and rollers are accustomed to.  According to the only guitar chord progression that I could find easily while I was at work, the chords for the first section appear to be:

Em D Em A Bm Em D Em D Bm C Bm.  

From the looks of the guitar fingerings the guy is using, I'm guessing he's playing in DADGAD tuning. The above progressions is not a chord progression that I'm at all familiar with.  Which, of course, is why I'm interested, since I'm trying to expand my knowledge of different genres of music.  

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright

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ratvn
Kent, Washington USA

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September 2, 2014 - 9:52 pm
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@coolpinkone, thanks, I hope some of it made sense.

@Uzi, thanks for reinforcing some of it. Of course, you did not embarrass me, and certainly I would not like to argue with anyone. I was making those points in hope that other members could learn a few points, and I also could learn a few things from the discussion as well, in which I did pick up quite a bit, from your posts.

Thanks for the further clarification of Minor scale, and I like that chord progression, in the repeated Em to D, and to Bm, i-II and i-v, and yes, it's a bit different progression for minor key that I'm used to as well.

Thanks for the post, Uzi.

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coolpinkone
California, the place of my heart
September 3, 2014 - 2:40 pm
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Robert, it brought back so much.  It took me 1/2 to go through your first post..but I got through it with a view to some recognition and connecting to what I had learned.

On your second post, or update, ALOT came rushing back to me from class.  I am thankful to be reminded.

You are awesome. It is nice to have some academic stuff for members and those searching the web for information.  You might help music students around the world. 

Cheers!

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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ratvn
Kent, Washington USA

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September 3, 2014 - 7:32 pm
Member Since: October 14, 2012
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Thanks, Toni. You're just so sweet.

So glad that you found some useful information there. I'm not good with these theory stuffs but I tried.

Thanks for the positive feedback, Toni.

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