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I know many of you play more than one instrument. I'm starting on the viola after a year on the violin. I had played the violin as a child and picked it up again about a year later. Last lesson I talked with my teacher about learning viola. She said she could teach me and is willing to do so, but she would like it if I also continued violin.
I don't know what I think about that. I don't see myself spending the time each day to give each instrument its due. Honestly, considering that I can only afford biweekly lessons, I don't see how we're supposed to work on either instrument enough in lessons for it to be worth my continuing the violin. (Switching teachers isn't an option because she comes to my house to teach my daughter as well, so financially, it works out). Part of the reason I want to switch is that I've always wanted to give viola or cello a serious try- I love the deeper-toned instruments. And I think, at least in the beginning, it might be less confusing to focus on the viola until I get more fluent in alto clef- I've tried a couple of practices practicing both, and it's very confusing to do the one after the other.
At the same time, I realize that I've put time and money into the violin and that it is, in some ways, a more versatile instrument because there is more music out there for it.
I personally would rather practice one instrument for 45 minutes or an hour then to practice two for 15-30 minutes. But maybe I'm missing some benefit to doing both that my teacher is seeing? I would love to get people's input.
~Sara
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@nykteria Why not just take viola lessons. Give it a try, and work on the violin on your own, don't just stop playing. Even if you just play songs you like on the violin over and over, at least the playing of it will remain fresh.
If you decide you do not like the viola, you can always continue back with the violin.
I have a cello, which I absolutely love, 15 1/2 inch viola, and a violin. I love the cello, but it is a bit harder, not harder, just requires a little more oomph in my arm to bow. My bowing arm no longer lets me play very long, but I still get it out. I have the 15 1/2 inch viola and love that sound, again a deeper sound, like you said. The larger viola hurts my wrist, even though size wise, I am supposed to be able to play it. I did have a 16 inch and I did not lose anything, sound-wise when switching to the 15 1/2. Some violists are very set in it having to be a 16 inch, saying you cannot get sound from a 15 1/2. Yes, you can! Why play a larger one that is not good for your arms and bone structure?
I am finding the violin is much easier for me now. I started with cello, added violin and then viola. I never took lessons for two instruments at one time, I had to learn the different clefs(?) to read the music, the difference in holding, bowing, etc. Doing two at once was not working for me. That said, I always played the instruments I was not having lessons for.
I am concentrating on my violin as it does not require as much oomph. At my age, not as much oomph left😂!
I hope this is helpful to you.
🐭
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Mouse said
@nykteria Why not just take viola lessons. Give it a try, and work on the violin on your own, don't just stop playing. Even if you just play songs you like on the violin over and over, at least the playing of it will remain fresh.🐭
Yeah, I don't want to stop playing the violin on occasion...I want to be able to switch back to it if the viola doesn't work for me. I've got a 15.5 inch and part of me is wondering if I should have gone smaller, but all the measuring charts said that for my length of arm, I'm between 15.5-16. It doesn't feel like a stretch until I try to use my fourth finger, but I have fourth finger issues on the violin too.
In a way, I feel like starting on a new instrument is a chance to learn new, better habits, even though they aren't drastically different.
~Sara
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First of all, I always say "Play what you want to play." That goes for instrument, style, etc. So if it's viola, great. If you don't have time for both, that is fine. And sure, coming back to one there will be some rust to shake off, but it's not like starting over.
And I get the time thing. I surely would love to play piano better than I do, but this last year I focused more on things in this order:
1.) Violin
2.) Drums
3.) Guitar (maintaining)
4.) Keyboards
5.) Others
And that left me very little time for keyboards. I would love to have a lot more time for music (and art) in my life. But I am happy, and I feel blessed that I have as much in my life as I do.
Now, as far as playing multiple instruments benefiting, there are ways that it does, and ways that it does not. I have never played viola, but I would guess that there are even more skills that it shares with violin than say guitar and piano.
I know I have posted this before, but things like sense of timing, pitch, musicality learned on one instrument will help learning another. And usually, they won't hurt, though I have had a couple of things/habits from guitar that almost broke my poor little brain on violin.
My point on this is, there may be some benefit to doing both violin and viola, but I cannot think of any because to me, they seem so similar. Someone else might know, but I would ask my teacher what she/he thinks the benefit of doing both would be.
Where I see the benefits of multiple instruments is in things like: Adding piano/keyboards. Piano is wonderful for just seeing and understanding scales, intervals, inversions and such in a way that makes so much more sense than on other instruments. The other is drums, for really getting that internal clock and rhythm going.
Honestly, for the music I like, and write and play and record, I would be far better off putting the time I spend on piano than on violin.
But, I *love* the sound of the violin, and really enjoy it, inept as I am. So that is where I put my effort - in to what I enjoy.
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For me it’s tough to divide my time between multiple instruments that essentially compete with each other -- I just do not have enough available time, energy or focus to do justice to them.
BUT: I do play fiddle and mandolin, and I do that because they support one another. While they are tuned the same, they have different strengths and limitations. I see them as complementary, where fiddle helps my mandolin playing and vice-versa. And when one is not working out, the other usually is.
Maybe it’s a question of motivation. My fiddle/mando motivation seems to work for me; I have been doing it for some and it seems to carry me through the ups and downs of learning music. But I don’t have a good reason to do violin/viola so I believe that would be a net negative for me.
You, on the other hand, may have motivation that can make the two-instrument strategy successful. Believe in yourself and good luck!
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@nykteria -
Did your teacher give you her reason (or reasons) 'why' she wanted you to continue with Violin lessons?
In 'most' Classical orchestral music, who plays the lead - 1st Violin, 2nd Violin, Viola, or Cello? I'm sure it depends on the orchestra, but I don't think Viola usually gets much in the way of leading parts. Keeping up with Violin might help you see your Viola's harmony place in orchestration, but other members here know MUCH more about this than I do.
If you don't plan to be part of an orchestra, you are free to think of the Viola like a Violin. New Viola size means getting used to slightly new arm/hand movement, as well as bowing a little differently on heavier strings. Getting used to Alto Clef may be the worst of it, but seriously... the Violin and Viola SHARE THREE STRINGS! Maybe your teacher wants you to see this relationship by playing both instruments.
So, you can still play violin music on your viola - you can shift up higher on the Viola A string for notes normally played on the Violin E string. You can also just chose Violin pieces to play on Viola that don't use much E string. OR, it's nice to transpose music (you've learned on the Violin) down/over a string, to play on the Viola. It's like pretending your 4 Viola strings are actually Violin strings. For me, sometimes it's easier to learn a piece on the violin first, especially if the music was intended for Violin.
I think there's many folks who have only one lesson per week, or less. Maybe ask if you can concentrate on viola for enough lessons to get comfortable, then split your 2 weekly lessons into one Viola, one Violin - see how it goes. You might get to where you can work a little on both your instruments in each lesson, concentrate on current problems - if your teacher is willing.
Ask if your Viola setup (and way you hold it) could be improved for more comfort. Also ask for extra help to find more comfort working on your pinky - how to shape your hand to aid it on Viola, extra exercises/etudes, until it's not an issue (I regretted not using my pinky enough when I started out).
The more you play your Viola (and the more you use your pinky) - the more natural it will feel.
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ELCBK said
@nykteria -Did your teacher give you her reason (or reasons) 'why' she wanted you to continue with Violin lessons?
Not really; she said it would be nice, that I've put time into the violin. I'll ask her about it more this next lesson. Maybe she thinks because I've had such trouble with my left hand on a smaller instrument that I'm not going to be able to do a larger one. That thought has crossed my mind as well, but lots of people with hands as small as me play viola, I'm sure.
I'm not too worried about learning alto clef. I know treble and bass clef (I played trombone in high school). I'm already faster at identifying the notes then I was a week ago. So far the biggest problem I've noticed is that as soon as I relax a little while I play my brain "defaults" to treble clef.
I would love to play music in a group, like an orchestra, someday. But that's like a 5-year goal, not an immediate goal. Right now, I just want to play the instrument and enjoy the sound of my own instrument. Except for a few songs, I don't enjoy the sound of myself playing the violin; I already enjoy the sound of the viola after one week's experience more then I have the violin after one year's experience. I don't know if that's just my preference for the lower register coming through or if it's a sign that I've been lazy with the violin and let my tone suffer, or both. I just know that I still don't like the way I sound on the violin, and it's really hard to practice when that's the case. I know it takes a long time on all the string instruments to lose that beginner sound, but you would think by now I would sound good on the open strings at least! 
~Sara
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Honestly, for the music I like, and write and play and record, I would be far better off putting the time I spend on piano than on violin.
But, I *love* the sound of the violin, and really enjoy it, inept as I am. So that is where I put my effort - in to what I enjoy.
That's a good sum up of my issue. In some ways, with what I want to play, I might be better off sticking with the violin. I love the sound of the violin- but not when I play it. I don't even like the sound when I play it. At one point I was taking voice lessons and working on violin and piano, and that all fell apart really quickly in terms of time. I just know that I think I can like the viola until I can love it- by which I mean I can like hearing myself play until I can reach a sound where I love it- better than the violin.
~Sara
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@Sasha -
Have you been playing your 6-string Viper?
@nykteria -
I don't see anything wrong with saying goodbye to the Violin.
If you are not sounding good on open strings, it could be partially your Violin (have you tried playing another violin?), but more likely your strings - and if you've played over a year, when did you last change them?
What brand strings are you using? ...will be a factor on your Viola, too.
I still have some trouble stretching my hand/fingers, but it's MUCH better now. I have to make sure my thumb is completely relaxed, like it doesn't exist. I also have to rotate my hand a split second before I use my pinky, so it comes closer to the fingerboard (instead of over-reaching with my pinky) - took me quite a while to get used to doing that.
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@nykteria as far as not liking the sound of your violin when you play it, that is where I was too. It's one of the reasons I stopped playing the first time after a few months. And it's not that it was a bad violin, I just didn't like the sound under my ear.
I did know there was a good deal of learning to play better, but I went out and tried a bunch of other violins and ended up getting one that I really liked the sound of. And I haven't put it down yet.
It's a funny thing, the sound in your ear playing is so different from the sound in the room which is different from the recorded sound.
But the sound of Snuffles whispering his sweet overtones in to my ear just makes me swoon!
Just something else to consider. But it's a really hard thing to know, especially when starting. For myself, I have found that the instrument has to inspire me and make me want to play, both in looks and in tone.
Take the time, try the viola. Try other violins too, and see if it's you playing violin, or if it's just you haven't found the right one for you yet. Even if you have to try some that might be more expensive (not saying buy something you cannot afford) but then you can know a bit more of how much of what you are not liking is from you, and how much is from the instrument.
As far as ELCBK's suggestion on open strings, very good point. Though I have found that different strings make much less of a difference. I did do that with my 'first' violin and it didn't help too much, though it is a bit cheaper than a new violin.
@ELCBK no I have not been playing the viper much. As you have seen from my videos, I need to lose more than a few pounds. Which is a problem with the viper, the way you wear it is pretty uncomfortable for someone my size. I do play it, but not often or long. And I need to get moving on losing some of this weight so I can play it. Like Snuffles, the Viper also inspires me with its sound and look in a way my NS Wav does not.
Plus, I am really digging Snuffles, and I think I am at a point where my tonal quality is leveling up, and I am finally figuring out how to record a really good sound from Snuffles as well - even better than I got on the Christmas songs. I might even order that Beyerdynamic M 160 ribbon mic I have been looking at. I never thought I would spend that much on a mic, but I have a few uses it would be really good for in addition to my condensers.
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@Sasha -
You have definitely found your path!!! ...best wishes tackling the weight - I'm still losing my battle, but new year & new strategy. 🤗
@nykteria -
One last thing I wanted to ask... you said your teacher was willing to help you with learning Viola, but are you really happy with this teacher? You don't sound (to me) like you're getting help with the things that are important to you.
There are some VERY impressive teachers for online/zoom lessons to consider. You might need to find 'the' right teacher, maybe a combination of classes & one-on-one lessons. I think zoom quality has improved tremendously in recent years - and I imagine they'd be awesome on a Smart TV!
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ELCBK said
@Sasha -You have definitely found your path!!! ...best wishes tackling the weight - I'm still losing my battle, but new year & new strategy. 🤗
@nykteria -
One last thing I wanted to ask... you said your teacher was willing to help you with learning Viola, but are you really happy with this teacher? You don't sound (to me) like you're getting help with the things that are important to you.
Yes, I'm happy with my teacher. It's true that my left hand has made little progress with her and for that alone I've considered having online lessons with someone else for a little while, just for a fresh perspective on that problem, but she comes to my house (I don't have a car so this is critical), she works good with my daughter who is 21 and is a high functioning autistic, and she's very open and willing to listen.
I checked the strings on my violin after you mentioned it in the previous post. They're definitely due for a change; despite me rubbing them down after each practice, there's still a sticky build-up on the strings. I bought a Fiddlerman Apprentice about a year ago and I really liked the strings, although I did replace the E-string with the Obligato. This time I think I'm not going to replace the E-string; I'm just going to put the full set on, and see what I think once they've settled in.
I've seen that button as a t-shirt. I need to get it!
~Sara
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Violin strings are like the tires on your car.
Replacing cheap, worn out or damaged strings is the easiest and quickest way to improve your violin’s performance.
You wouldn’t drive in the snow with bald tires, so don’t bother trying to make your fiddle sound good with bad strings. Spend a few bucks and take ten minutes to replace those strings.
You’ll be pleased with the results!
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Strabo said
Violin strings are like the tires on your car.Replacing cheap, worn out or damaged strings is the easiest and quickest way to improve your violin’s performance.
You wouldn’t drive in the snow with bald tires, so don’t bother trying to make your fiddle sound good with bad strings. Spend a few bucks and take ten minutes to replace those strings.
You’ll be pleased with the results!
I really like that analogy Strabo. Tires won't turn a Pinto in to a Porsche, but it will help the Pinto perform the best it can. Likewise strings won't radically transform a violin's sound, but it will help it be the best it can be. And I think I just aged myself with a Pinto reference.
But also, I live in Minnesota. I use snow tires myself, but there is no shortage of people who drive in the snow with bad and bald tires. Just saying.
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Sasha said
Strabo said
Violin strings are like the tires on your car.
Replacing cheap, worn out or damaged strings is the easiest and quickest way to improve your violin’s performance.
You wouldn’t drive in the snow with bald tires, so don’t bother trying to make your fiddle sound good with bad strings. Spend a few bucks and take ten minutes to replace those strings.
You’ll be pleased with the results!
I really like that analogy Strabo. Tires won't turn a Pinto in to a Porsche, but it will help the Pinto perform the best it can. Likewise strings won't radically transform a violin's sound, but it will help it be the best it can be. And I think I just aged myself with a Pinto reference.
I understood your Pinto reference...so I've aged myself too!
Yeah, I was surprised at the condition of the strings. I clean them after every practice, but they still have buildup. Now I just have to get the courage to change the strings (I've been shown how to do it but I've never actually done it). Right now it has the Fiddlerman strings on it except for E where I have an Obligato, and I think I'll do the same thing again.
~Sara
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@nykteria -
I like warmth in strings, but matching up strings to your instrument is VERY personal. I've tried a few strings that sounded so terribly offensive/harsh to my ears I had to IMMEDIATELY remove them!
If you don't want to break the bank with a full set of Obligatos, but want to try something different - look at Zyex strings.
My 'go-to' Violin E string for great tone - https://fiddlershop.com/produc.....l-violin-e ...costs the same as the Obligato E, but much nicer (with any set).
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I too have tried strings that sounded bad and had to be removed immediately.
It’s tricky to find the set of strings that sound best on a particular fiddle -- and to one’s own ears.
Violin strings are easy to change, but they are expensive. While testing strings is relatively straightforward on a guitar or mandolin, the high cost of violin strings makes it an expensive process for fiddle. Think about buying a set of strings for $100+ just to see how they sound!
I used the Fiddlerman chart to select reasonably affordable strings that I thought might work out. I tested 4-5 types of strings and eventually settled on strings that I like very much. In the process, I learned about different characteristics of my two fiddles and which strings each one likes the best. It’s Prim for one and Helicore for the other. It took a while to figure this out, but I’m happy with the result.
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Well I did change the strings, and feel that there should be some sort of merit badge awarded for the first time I'm changing the strings that I can stick to my violin case or something. LOL and it does sound better. Not the better in the direction I want though. I want a really mellow rich warm sound. These sound very clear and crisp. They aren't forgiving. The open strings do sound good again, although not as good as my teacher.
New strings aside though, there's just so much about my playing that bothers me. It's like.. it's like my fingers can go to speed and my bow arm can keep up, but everything else about the music falls apart. My bow either sounds crunchy or Airy when I start it. I know I don't use enough bow per note. My intonation was not good enough for her to have taken off the tapes. I really needed some intensive focus on that before we did that. And I've got to get that left hand tension under control. It's already severely impacting my playing and I know when we get to something like I brought it'll make it impossible.
But last night playing on the viola, I either didn't have the problems or the instrument is more forgiving. I need work on my intonation to make it precise so when I lose the tapes on the viola I'm actually ready, and I need to work on my left hand. I think I can make a lot of progress in either instrument if I got those things down.
Maybe I do need to go to into a shop and play some expensive violins and see how much of it is really me. I'm sure 99%. I've been very happy with my Fiddler man Apprentice compared to my other violins I found and for a student level violin I couldn't have asked for a better one. But I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have gotten an intermediate one, not because the instrument will make up for my mistakes but just because of the quality that I'm looking for in terms of sound. I don't know. I don't know enough about how instruments are made to make that kind of call. But my viola is a student level viola and it sounds amazing.
Thank you for listening to my indecision and my whining, LOL.
~Sara
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@nykteria said
Well I did change the strings, and feel that there should be some sort of merit badge awarded for the first time I'm changing the strings that I can stick to my violin case or something. LOL and it does sound better. Not the better in the direction I want though. I want a really mellow rich warm sound. These sound very clear and crisp. They aren't forgiving. The open strings do sound good again, although not as good as my teacher.
Your instructor is much more experienced with proper bowing, and I think that really shows up with open strings because they are not fingered. Plus, a different violin and strings. Don't compare.
New strings aside though, there's just so much about my playing that bothers me. It's like.. it's like my fingers can go to speed and my bow arm can keep up, but everything else about the music falls apart. My bow either sounds crunchy or Airy when I start it. I know I don't use enough bow per note. My intonation was not good enough for her to have taken off the tapes. I really needed some intensive focus on that before we did that. And I've got to get that left hand tension under control. It's already severely impacting my playing and I know when we get to something like I brought it'll make it impossible.
Don't rush the tapes, do what is best for you. Mostly, those that do not use them, most often, do not understand the need that those who do them. Different ways people learn, I use them.
But last night playing on the viola, I either didn't have the problems or the instrument is more forgiving. I need work on my intonation to make it precise so when I lose the tapes on the viola I'm actually ready, and I need to work on my left hand. I think I can make a lot of progress in either instrument if I got those things down.
Ditto about what was said about the tapes above. It might be that you have an easier time with the larger instrument. Strings are a little further apart, hand is not as crunched when supporting it in your left hand, etc. You have just started with the viola, but you might find it better to learn on that with lessons and then transfer that knowledge to your violin.
Maybe I do need to go to into a shop and play some expensive violins and see how much of it is really me. I'm sure 99%. I've been very happy with my Fiddler man Apprentice compared to my other violins I found and for a student level violin I couldn't have asked for a better one. But I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have gotten an intermediate one, not because the instrument will make up for my mistakes but just because of the quality that I'm looking for in terms of sound. I don't know. I don't know enough about how instruments are made to make that kind of call. But my viola is a student level viola and it sounds amazing.
The sound of the instrument, mostly open strings because I am learning, is what really leads me to instruments. It doesn't even have to be an expensive one. I would give yourself time before stepping up, though. Fiddlershop makes some great instruments for all levels and I do believe you can trade up, but I am not positive, I am not a member of the Fiddlershop family.
I went from a Concert Deluxe to a Lord Wilton. It all had to do with the fact that as I became more comfortable and improved a little, I really wanted a fuller sound, I could hear that it did not give the sound. It was a great violin, but maybe I outgrew it, as far as what I want to do? I knew that I could do better at the time I upgraded, and I think the sound has allowed that. I donated my Concert Deluxe rather than trade.
The sound you hear and what you want really makes a difference, but I would say, give yourself a chance to achieve that sound. It is not a quick learn to learn violin/fiddle.
Also, maybe next time try different strings.
Thank you for listening to my indecision and my whining, LOL.
You are not whining, just sharing your thoughts, 😁. Sometimes that helps you think things through.
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@nykteria
So, wondering if it is you or the instrument, you already know the answer. You like what you hear on the Viola. Even though a student instrument, will be warmer and richer than a violin. It's the nature of the instrument.
Unless you are doing something radically different bowing the Viola vs Violin, I would say it's the violin, and not you. So, that's the good news.
The bad news is, it probably means you would want a different violin. I don't know if going up to an 'intermediate' violin would be the trick or not. You might get lucky and find one that has the sound you are looking for. For me, it ended up being a considerably more expensive instrument. For the record, Snuffles was around $5k
I did just remember one thing I did before getting snuffles that helped a lot. I actually wore an ear plug in my left ear when practicing. If you cannot warm up the fiddle, you can still mellow out what comes in to your ear. And they weren't expensive, a cheaper pair of 'musician' ear plugs, though super cheap foam ones will roll even more high end off.
Just something to try that doesn't cost too much.
But sadly, things like strings, moving sound post, thicker bridge might help a little, but they won't change the nature of that instrument.
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