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The Right Notes
Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 (10 votes) 
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Composer

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The problem with the advice "Practice scales" against an external source is that they are almost always using equal temperament which is incorrect for a violin.  Same goes for the tuner unless you have one of the fancy tuners such as the Pederson Stroboflip (no longer being sold and impossible to use anyways) or some software based tuner.

Some instructors emphasize sight singing which I find hopelessly impractical.  There is another consideration with scales:  Some notes of the scales can be tuned to personal taste to a certain degree while others have to be precisely in tune. 

Again, another consideration:  you can tune with melodic or harmonic function in mind.

Again, another consideration:  some notes (G, D, A, E) are tuned independent of context by simply listening to the resonant signature (sympathetic vibrations)

ETC ETC ETC...eg. usefulness or not of Tartini/Combination tones

The only violin instructional books I have encountered that even discuss what it means to be 'in tune' are the Fischer manuals and Barry Ross 'A Violinist Guide to Exquisite Intonation'...and I just hate them both because its really just an ad-hoc collection of rules with no decent explanation which neither author even agrees upon.

In fact there is a DVD collection on playing scales on violin from Valerie Gardner and she doesn't even mention a word on how the scales are tuned.  Imagine that.

I just don't understand why this topic is such a swamp of differing opinions, lack of clarity, etc

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Here is an idea:  Play a G-major scale tuned according to equal temperament (like a piano).  Then do it with the correct temperament (pythagorean, expressive or functional intonation, or whatever they call it...they have so many different names) for a violin.  Can you notice the difference?  The danger I was told from some instructor is that if you use a common ET tuner you will become conditioned to that tuning and consider that normal.  I mean how many people ever complain about any piece played on a piano as being out of tune? 

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Finally, I will try to make this problem concrete by a specific example.  Here are the tuning rules for a G-Major scale (including tuning the open strings)

1.  Tune the A string with an external source (electronic or tuning fork)

Done.  This is trivial

2.  Tune the D string by making a perfect 5th below the already tuned A string

Not trivial.  I can learn to recognize a 5th from a piano.  But is it the same as for violin?  IMO, the perfect 4ths and 5ths are very close.  But the point is that its not the same.  If you ear train using software or a piano it will condition your mind toward equal temperament which is a bad thing.

3.  Assuming the G and E strings are tuned, now lets begin the scale steps.

A-Natural: Tune according to the sympathetic vibrations (Barry Ross has a nifty procedure for making this exact) of the open A string.  Done.  This is trivial

B-Natural: Tune high, relative to the natural above which is C.

Impossible.  This can't be done at first because you don't know what C is yet.
  This already screws up learning a scale by starting at the beginning and proceeding in sequence.  So you have to learn the skeleton of the scale and then fill in the rest.

C-Natural:  Interval of a perfect 4th with the open G. 

As i said earlier, you can use a regular tuner for this because its close enough.

D-Natural: Tune according to the sympathetic vibrations of the open D-String

E-Natural: Tune according to the sympathetic vibrations of the open E-string

F-Sharp: Tune high according to the natural above which is G.

See, all of this is not trivial because it involves differing rules which are ultimately rooted in music theory which violinists like to skip because its not a compositional device like a piano.  The major scale such as G-Major is much easier tuning-wise than other keys.   The tuning logic for a different key than G-Major will not be the same.

So I say "Just play scales" in typical Perlman-style simplification is basically meaningless.  Having an instructor say "yay, or nay" while you play each note  isn't much help either. 

The question starting this thread is a very good one.  And I don't think anyone has answered it.

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Composer said
The question starting this thread is a very good one.  And I don't think anyone has answered it.

Just how many answer's do you need?  Seem's everyone, other than yourself, agree that scale's are very important in the learning process of any instrument.

There's not a song written, (to my knowledge) that doesn't consist of using scale's, just not in the order we think of as a scale.

As far as being in tune, if you're playing alone, it really doesn't matter if your instrument is out of tune or not, as long as each note played coincide's (tuned) with the before and after note. In other word's, it need's to sound right to our ear.

The only exception there would be with being out of tune would be with the piano, harp or another instrument that has fixed string's. If 87 key's are in tune, but one key is not, this make's a difference, because you can't physically adjust one particular note on a piano as you can on a violin. Even with fretted instument's such as guitar, you can bend a string to get in tune, but this also require's using our ear.

Perhap's you should post a video tutorial, showing us just exactly what you mean and how to play a song without using scale note's. Maybe you've stumbled on something that musician's for hundred's of year's were never aware of and still aren't to this day.

If you are having (and I assume) you are, such a difficult time learing to play violin, this could be the reason. You are fighting the system.

Maybe you should apply more time to learing to play using "SCALES", rather than having such an attitude that you can play without them.

 

                        semiquaver-1214crotchet-1218

 

 

 

 

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Picklefish
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jessviolin said
Hi everyone.

I am going to start the violin properly over again because the last few weeks have been very higgledy piggledy, but now I'll have a proper routine.

The only thing is, I don't know when I am playing the right notes and I know my tutor will help me, but I just want to be playing the right notes. I used a tuner to help me, but I don't think thats a good idea, because then I'll just start relying on the tuner. Does anyone have any advice?

 

Thanks, I'm a music novice really!

Unless your ear can detect perfect pitch then you either need a tuner or play with a recording that is in tune, something by Itzhak Perlman perhaps. No one plays perfectly in tune all the time, and the quick notes go by so fast the ear cannot accurately determine if it was in tune anyways, as long as you are close. A Violin solo played "in tune" can be different than being "in tune" with other instruments whether in a quartet or orchestra. You can use tapes to get close, a tuner to get closer, or train your own ear to hear the subtle differences and adjust that way. That by the way is the progression I teach to new students because its a progressive way to teach you to recognize your own "in tune". The ability to play a note as "in tune" as possible is a skill learned separately from bowing which is learned separately from fingerings. But, they are also used together to enhance learning and improve playing. A program for ear training that is taught to music majors in most schools is called Solfedge. Its based on the Do, Re, Me concept, Get a book or dvd on this and add it to your regimine and your ability to play in tune will improve.

@Composer- Argueing against or refuting the established norms for instruction dont improve your own playing. Everyone learns differently at different paces and you have to sometimes be creative to solve your own specific learning challenges regarding the instrument. All this nonesense about tune this and that isnt going to help you. Play using the tools you have, adjust them according to your needs and by all means, share them with us because you arent alone. Someone else on this forum probably has your same concerns.

The Fish has spoken.clap

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Picklefish
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Learning scales teaches the fingerings used in that key signature. There are many variations on scales that teach finger dexterity for the different fingerings for that key signature. If you play the scale "in tune" you can train yourself to hear the differences and can be a great learning tool. Memorizing the different scales, scale patterns helps immensly when trying to learn a musical piece that has key changes in it. Since most musical pieces are composed of a "scale" in one form or another, playing excerpts of musical pieces can be a scale "study" in itself and is a great way to keep from getting bored with your practices. There are more benefits to not benefits in regards to learning scales, its required in the public schools in Florida. The argument for not being able to play a scale in tune doesnt hold water because it supposes the reason for playing scales is to play them in tune without first learning what the in tune notes are. That is secondary to its primary goal of reinforcing the fingering posistions, if you are in tune thats a bonus. In my uneducate hillbilly opinion.

The fish has spoken twice. lol

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Composer said
 

See, all of this is not trivial because it involves differing rules which are ultimately rooted in music theory which violinists like to skip because its not a compositional device like a piano.

  

I am not sure that it is so much the violin not being a compositional device.  Many people take up an instrument with no particular intention to study music theory in specific.  I would say that in most cases, people do it because they want to be able to play some songs/pieces.

I would agree that theory is the study of the conventions music (as we would usually think of it) is based on.  But while food is made of chemicals, people trying recipes in a cookbook or taking a few classes on a particular cuisine are not usually expecting to study all of the chemical reactions involved or to have to memorize the periodic table of the elements to learn how to make a souffle or cake.  

Obviously, many top cooks/chefs may be more aware of the chemistry involved than an average person, at least to the point of knowing the effect that each ingredient in a recipe will have on the final dish.  But most people first learning to cook maybe read the instructions and just try recipes to see if they can get things they and their family and friends like. 

Over time, and usually with a few kitchen disasters, they learn what at least some critical ingredients do, learn to adjust recipes at first for portion number/size and then for taste.  Over time, most get better at it.  But they may never actually delve very deeply into the chemical, physics and mathematical aspects involved, and still be able to make tasty food and even may incorporate their own artistic touches and have them well received by the people they cook for.

Yes, food and music are not exactly the same thing.  But they do share some aspects in that both can be studied/understood from an analytic/scientific perspective, they both require a certain amount of discipline and practice to achieve skill, and whether or not what one has done is "good" is largely a subjective judgement made by those one does it for.

My point is that not everyone who takes up an instrument or sings is diving into a study of music theory.  Most probably just want to enjoy and perhaps entertain a bit.  Some may have the stirrings of interest and the hunger to learn more depth and may eventually study theory and history.  Others may not.

If people were allowed to purchase or touch a musical instrument only after they get a PhD in music theory, the world would be a much quieter place.  I can't say that I think that would make it a better place.

blink

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"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Mad_Wed
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Fiddlerman said

picklefish said
b-slapMy son recommended this

Ahhhhhhhh - That is the old Russian school. roflNo offense Naska.wink

Not offended. Truth.

roflol

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pickelfish, everything you have written is handwaving besides the solfege system which no adult beginner will bother with and again is not really going to resolve the matter in the specific case of violin.  Again, most people simply do not understand how scales on a violin are correctly played in tune.  Its no hard to be close, just that its obvious they don't understand what and what is not correct.  I didn't say scales were unimportant, just that the important details of playing them correctly in tune and consistently accurate are completely ignored in most cases.   The link below in a very brief (therefore unsatisfactory) but correct introduction to the subject of intonation on violin in general, the content of which you nor fiddlestix presented in this thread:

http://www.violinmasterclass.c.....intonation

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I dont get the point, purpose or positive end result of your post? What does it matter if its not played in tune? What if learning the scales only helps some people? I love the Violin Masterclass website by the way, almost as much as the violine site.com. So if I agree that you are correct, then what? what is the solution? If there isnt one, therefore you have a circular argument that serves no purpose?

My point is that the traditional learning styles including scales and their variants help enough people to make learning them worthwhile. And yes, I can accurately and correctly intone when I play them, to my satisfaction anyways.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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DanielB said

Composer said
 

See, all of this is not trivial because it involves differing rules which are ultimately rooted in music theory which violinists like to skip because its not a compositional device like a piano.

  

I am not sure that it is so much the violin not being a compositional device.  Many people take up an instrument with no particular intention to study music theory in specific.  I would say that in most cases, people do it because they want to be able to play some songs/pieces.

I would agree that theory is the study of the conventions music (as we would usually think of it) is based on.  But while food is made of chemicals, people trying recipes in a cookbook or taking a few classes on a particular cuisine are not usually expecting to study all of the chemical reactions involved or to have to memorize the periodic table of the elements to learn how to make a souffle or cake.  

Obviously, many top cooks/chefs may be more aware of the chemistry involved than an average person, at least to the point of knowing the effect that each ingredient in a recipe will have on the final dish.  But most people first learning to cook maybe read the instructions and just try recipes to see if they can get things they and their family and friends like. 

Over time, and usually with a few kitchen disasters, they learn what at least some critical ingredients do, learn to adjust recipes at first for portion number/size and then for taste.  Over time, most get better at it.  But they may never actually delve very deeply into the chemical, physics and mathematical aspects involved, and still be able to make tasty food and even may incorporate their own artistic touches and have them well received by the people they cook for.

Yes, food and music are not exactly the same thing.  But they do share some aspects in that both can be studied/understood from an analytic/scientific perspective, they both require a certain amount of discipline and practice to achieve skill, and whether or not what one has done is "good" is largely a subjective judgement made by those one does it for.

My point is that not everyone who takes up an instrument or sings is diving into a study of music theory.  Most probably just want to enjoy and perhaps entertain a bit.  Some may have the stirrings of interest and the hunger to learn more depth and may eventually study theory and history.  Others may not.

If people were allowed to purchase or touch a musical instrument only after they get a PhD in music theory, the world would be a much quieter place.  I can't say that I think that would make it a better place.

blink

hats_off

DanielB, you may believe my position is academic claptrap.  But what is more practical than "Where do I place my finger on the G-string to sound the first note A-natural in the G-Major scale?".   Short Answer:  The A-natural is tuned in comparison to the open A string via sympathetic vibrations.  Wrong Answer:  The A-natural is tuned by comparison to the same pitch being sounded by an external drone. 

This isn't some idea i concocted.  This is straight out of two different books (Fischer, Ross) I mentioned earlier.  If you look at the tuning rules in Fischer's book 'Scales', you have to have the ability to recognize the perfect intervals of 4ths, 5ths, and octaves.  As I said, if you commonly use a tuner that employs equal temperament, the 4ths, and 5ths between pythagorean and equal temperament are pretty close.  The octave, I believe, is exactly the same.

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so why wouldnt a tuner be just as accurate for finding the first finger posistion on the G string?

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Composer said

The question starting this thread is a very good one.  And I don't think anyone has answered it.

  

Good point.  And I don't think you have yet, either.

blink

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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@Composer

I am very intrigued by your use of the term "resonant signature" and wonder if this might have meaning for something I do when tuning ?

I think your reference is to a resonance for individual strings which is fine with me.  However, I do something maybe a little different.

I usually do a rough tuning with a meter.  Then I retune listening to the string(s) AND the violin.  I believe that my violin(s) sound better when the violin(body) itself achieves a certain "special" sound.   A free quality "upgrade" in the instrument sound quality.  There seems to be more to be had than just vibrating string physics(?)

I have no idea if all this makes any sense but sometimes I play with only meter tuning and am soon annoyed.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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I agree with you Oliver. I have seen many better players than I tune by ear and then adjust the tuning to how the strings sound played together. I havent been successful with this yet. I am curious about Composers method if there is a way to train new students to be in tune that way from the beginning.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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I have avoided any controversy by simply ignoring the subject in my miniscule knowledge bank.  For now I must settle for putting my fingers on the right notes.

However !!!!  I think I have a great reason for playing scales.  Key signature recognition.  Being that all notes look the same in any key, this can be very tricky and I have been ambushed by many A flat signatures in recent months !

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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You guy's are arguing over plain common sense.    roflmooning-2174

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Fiddlestix said

Composer said
The question starting this thread is a very good one.  And I don't think anyone has answered it.

Just how many answer's do you need?  Seem's everyone, other than yourself, agree that scale's are very important in the learning process of any instrument.

There's not a song written, (to my knowledge) that doesn't consist of using scale's, just not in the order we think of as a scale.

As far as being in tune, if you're playing alone, it really doesn't matter if your instrument is out of tune or not, as long as each note played coincide's (tuned) with the before and after note. In other word's, it need's to sound right to our ear.

The only exception there would be with being out of tune would be with the piano, harp or another instrument that has fixed string's. If 87 key's are in tune, but one key is not, this make's a difference, because you can't physically adjust one particular note on a piano as you can on a violin. Even with fretted instument's such as guitar, you can bend a string to get in tune, but this also require's using our ear.

Perhap's you should post a video tutorial, showing us just exactly what you mean and how to play a song without using scale note's. Maybe you've stumbled on something that musician's for hundred's of year's were never aware of and still aren't to this day.

If you are having (and I assume) you are, such a difficult time learing to play violin, this could be the reason. You are fighting the system.

Maybe you should apply more time to learing to play using "SCALES", rather than having such an attitude that you can play without them.

 

                        semiquaver-1214crotchet-1218

 

 

 

Wow, very well said there my friend and fellow fiddler player of practice scales...cheers

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Alex

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This thread makes my head hurt.

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Look on the bright side.  Scales are the only music I've been able to memorize violin-student

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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