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I posted the below link to a topic started by @Katie L about intervals to help her visualize. It was the best fingerboard illustration I have found, at least for me:
https://www.violinonline.com/f.....chart.html
It did raise a question for me on a different topic. Rather than Katie M's topic take a turn, I am using the same link for my question, having to do with positions. Due to copyrights, I just posted the link, not the picture of the fingerboard.
My question that arose is this. I have trouble remembering exactly where the different positions start, ie first, second, etc. I always got them a bit off, and did in lessons, also. Mostly, I second guess myself and I do have a different way of thinking things through, have you noticed?
I know where first is, that is an easy one.
In looking at the diagram in the link, I see that 3rd starts at the C, G, D and A on the G, D, A, E strings (violin).
Now, second position is not bracketed in and noted in the diagram. I am assuming it starts on B, F#, G# and C# on the G, D, A and E strings? My thinking is that since it shows the B flat, C F, G and C as low 2, that where I am thinking second position starts is correct?
So fourth would be D, A, E, B?
Fifth would be E, B, F#, C#?
Basically, for a position change you go up a whole step? If I just remember a whole step up placement of the first finger is a shift up in position, I am on target. It is not relative to where I am currently using my first finger on the fingerboard, but relative to first position. The notes and string designations would be different for the viola and cello, but the idea is the same.
I was originally thinking it had to do with not being a flat or sharp, but the note for first finger in a shift position had to be a natural. So, when I was told to shift up, I was always going to the next natural note.
If you are playing in fifth position, stretching back a half step from the C# on the E to the C is low fifth.
If you stretch up to the D, it is upper fifth.
I do realize that if you are playing in fourth or sixth, upper and lower changes. My example is playing in fifth.
Do I, finally, have it right? Whole note jumps from first position is second position. A whole note jump from second position is third, etc. It does not matter if it is a flat, sharp it natural.
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@Mouse -
This might help - it's my favorite chart.
I use half position quite a bit and some of the others.
When it comes to visualizing half-tones/semitones, I prefer a keyboard chart, because I can easily see 'Middle C' and that B/C & E/F are only a half-step/semitone apart.
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@Mouse
I’ve attached a modified chart to show the starting positions up to 5th position.
2nd Position: Starts where your 2nd finger goes in 1st position (low 2nd). For example, on the A string, it starts on C
In 1st position, your finger positions: 1=B, 2=C. So, 1st finger of 2nd position starts on this C.
3rd Position: Starts where your 3rd finger goes in 1st position. For example, on the A string, it starts on D.
In 1st position, your finger positions: 1=B, 2=C, 3=D. So, 1st finger of 3rd position starts on this D.
4th Position: Starts where your 4th finger goes in 1st position. For example, on the A string, it starts on E.
In 1st position, your finger positions: 1=B, 2=C, 3=D. 4=E. So, 1st finger of 4th position starts on this E.
5th Position: Starts 1 step up from the start of 4th position (or where 2nd finger is on 4th position).
For example, on the A string, 4th position started on the E. Move up one step, & you’re on F, the 1st finger of 5th position.
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Sorry. Thanks for the reply, but it just confuses me more. It is too busy.
What note is 1st finger 2nd pos? 3rd, and 4th? The overlapping charts really, for me, are just too confusing. I don't need low 2nd, etc. I know they are just that half step back.
On that chart, looking at the D string. First position has the 1st finger in the E, which I knew.
If someone says, "place your fingers in second position on the D string." Where do the fingers go?
It looks like, on the D string 2nd position started on the F, just a half step up from first finger first position of E. But then the third position skips the F# and goes all the way up to the G for 3rd position. Is that right? As far as position designations, the F# on the D string is not counted for first finger placement, if you are not talking low 3rd or upper 2nd? So, that is why the 2nd finger covers both the F and F# in first position on the D string, and likewise for the sister notes in the other 3 strings?
If you are told to place your fingers in the D string 2nd position, you would use the F, not the F# for the first finger, and the second finger would cover both the F# and G, but you would place it on the F# to start with? The third finger would do the G# and A, and the fourth finger would do the A#?
It looks like there are 3 1/2 whole steps between each position. Am I counting that right? I would ask why, but most answers are above my head with this music theory, so don't delve too far. Just trying to figure out what the positions start and end with and what fingers do what. It might help with my fumbling fingers when bowing. I am just rying to make more sense of what I have read in the books.
Thanks.
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@SharonC Your reply was posted while I was trying to type my reply to Emily's reply.
So, I think I get it with your explanation, Take the D string, since you used the A string, () denote finger used
1st position is E(1), F-lower(2), G(3), A(4)
2nd position F(1), F#-lower(2), G#(3), A#(4)
3rd position G(1), G#-lower(2), A#(3), B(4)
4th position A(1), Bflat-lower(2), C(3), D(4)
I will probably never be any higher than that. I haven't gone up that high on a violin.
Explored on a cello, and did some songs that went way up, or down depending on your perspective, on the A and D strings on a cello. That is so much fun. I have taken cello book 1 songs, that would have had position changes had it not been book 1, and inserted position changes and eliminated a lot of open strings. I find it harder on a violin. It is a combination of not understanding how to figure it out, and the contorting of the arm, 😂.
It is easier to do for me on a cello. I am not very strong on the cello D string moving up the registers and switching positions on that string. I am making myself do that where it is appropriate, though. But, since I was into the higher position registers on the A string on the cello with my lessons, and switched positions with the A string quite a bit, I am stronger moving up in positions on the A string.
I would like to be a little more comfortable with position changes on the violin. Understanding where they are and how to figure it out without stopping and looking at a book, will help. Knowing how to determine it, as you explained will go a long way.
Thanks to everyone for the help.
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Mouse said
Sorry. Thanks for the reply, but it just confuses me more. It is too busy.What note is 1st finger 2nd pos? 3rd, and 4th?
@Mouse
Arrows on above chart mark the start of each position with 1st finger.
2nd Position
G string- starts on Bflat
D string – starts on F
A string – starts on C
E string – starts on G
3rd Position
G string- starts on C
D string – starts on G
A string – starts on D
E string – starts on A
4th Position
G string- starts on D
D string – starts on A
A string – starts on E
E string – starts on B
5th Position
G string- starts on Eb (D#)
D string – starts on Bb (A#)
A string – starts on F
E string – starts on C
Mouse said
If someone says, "place your fingers in second position on the D string." Where do the fingers go?
1st finger - F
2nd finger - F# (low), G (high)
3rd finger - A
4th finger - Bb (A#)
It looks like, on the D string 2nd position started on the F, just a half step up from first finger first position of E. But then the third position skips the F# and goes all the way up to the G for 3rd position. Is that right?
Yes
As far as position designations, the F# on the D string is not counted for first finger placement, if you are not talking low 3rd or upper 2nd? So, that is why the 2nd finger covers both the F and F# in first position on the D string, and likewise for the sister notes in the other 3 strings?
On D: 2nd position starts with 1st finger on F. 2nd finger would be F# (low) or G (high)
On A: 2nd position starts with 1st finger on C. 2nd finger would be C#(low) or D (high)
On E: 2nd position starts with 1st finger on G. 2nd finger would be G#(low) or A(high)
On G: 2nd position starts with 1st finger on Bb. 2nd finger would be on B (low) or C (high)
If you are told to place your fingers in the D string 2nd position, you would use the F, not the F# for the first finger, and the second finger would cover both the F# and G, but you would place it on the F# to start with? The third finger would do the G# and A, and the fourth finger would do the A#?
Not sure what you mean by "F# to start with" - 2nd finger could be F# (low) or G (high). Just like on 1st position A string, where 2nd finger can be C (low) or C#(high).
3rd finger would likely do A (just like 1st position A string, where 3rd finger would likely do D).
4th finger would likely do A# (Bb) (just like 1st position A string, where 4th finger would likely do E).
It looks like there are 3 1/2 whole steps between each position. Am I counting that right? I would ask why, but most answers are above my head with this music theory, so don't delve too far. Just trying to figure out what the positions start and end with and what fingers do what. It might help with my fumbling fingers when bowing. I am just rying to make more sense of what I have read in the books.
Thanks.
No--there are different steps between each positions--they are not the same.
I've got the starting notes listed at the beginning of the post.
I get it. Charts can be confusing, and sometimes have too much info/not the info you're looking for.
I've attached a blank finger chart worksheet that I used a lot when I was working out fingerings in pieces when positions were new to me. 
I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but it is easier to begin with learning 3rd position before 2nd. Once you can "see" 3rd (i.e., like you can see 1st), the other positions will come easier.
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Thank you very much, SharonC. This has been very helpful. I am going to print off your attachment. I probably have one in a book, but sometimes searching for long periods for information and then searching elsewhere for continued information is distracting and makes it hard to put it all together.
Thanks for taking the time to help.
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