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Cadences in Music Theory
How many?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (17 votes) 
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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Well, after loosing power & internet again, today (1st was last night) - figure I better type quickly. (lol) 

FEMININE CADENCE - very cool!  Wondered for a moment, if it would solve our dilemma, but 'Virginia Reel' doesn't end on the Tonic.

Had to go back & listen to 'the Virginia Reel'.  Still thinking 'Deceptive Cadence', but hearing the same motif repeated earlier, but with a shorter version of the last note - got me thinking more.  Now, I'm not so sure it isn't a 'Half Cadence', except I'm pretty sure the last note is NOT a dominant chord.  But, I'm basing that only on feeling (feminine intuition). 🤣

So, I could use some help with this, because if the last note IS a dominant chord - think 'Virginia Reel' would have to be considered a 'Half Cadence'.  

giphy.gif

 

Btw, loved "The Uninvited" and "Streetcar Named Desire" - good way to capture MY attention!  The rest of the video was full of really interesting info, too! 

Thank you! 

- Emily

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ELCBK
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Jeez, been 2½ years since I've really thought much about cadence? 

Shame on me... needed to brush up on the 4 kinds. 

Did learn something new (from a video 😱) today (er, yesterday) about cadences I hadn't caught before, or maybe just didn't sink in... 

"Rule No.1 - The final chord in a cadence can only be I or V."  WHAT???  Deceptive Cadence breaks THAT rule!

 

Well, guess that's as far as Grade 5 gets... but c'mon, we ALL know there's MORE! 

What about "Deceptive Cadence"?  ...Wikipedia is gonna kill me yet - not ready for 'evaded' & 'inverted' cadence! 🥴 

I checked out the "My Music Theory" site & found Victoria offers MORE - EASY TO UNDERSTAND info on cadences!   

Cadence search result

 

...maybe not ALL of them. 

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ELCBK
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While digging around in song forms today I ran across the 'Elided Cadence' (cool article)! 

It occurs in music when a new phrase begins before or at the same time as the cadential chord that is just about to close the previous musical idea. 

🤣... I have definitely played some of my tunes this way - not that it was supposed to be, but there's been times I just felt a phrase or part shouldn't stop! 

 

 

I looked at a couple other videos from Dr. Ben Fuhrman.   MUS2702 Creative Composition 2 Tutorial & Assignment Playlist - great stuff made for his University Students, but EASY to understand!  Wonderful tidbits of info to pick up.  His YT Channel has other playlists like, MUS 1002-2022 Exploring Technology in Music!

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Gordon Shumway
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All I can remember from grade 5 theory (1975?) is perfect and plagal cadences.

And I never really needed to know about them in order to pass grade 8 piano with distinction. I haven't watched the video. Maybe there's some that I've forgotten.

Of course there are more than that. But why torture yourself?

Andrew

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ABitRusty
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@elcbk said

""Rule No.1 - The final chord in a cadence can only be I or V."  WHAT???  Deceptive Cadence breaks THAT rule!"

Im thinking the "rules" are pertaining to the test for testing purposes.  Not as a suggestion to never to anything but what the rule says.

But idk.. its guess on my part.

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AndrewH
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If I remember correctly, in the ABRSM system Grade 5 is the level where they first introduce cadences. Deceptive cadences are introduced later.

A lot of the study of music theory, beyond the introductory level, is something like, "Remember this rule you learned earlier? Here's an exception." Either that, or "Remember this rule you learned earlier? Here's an example of someone breaking it and why it works."

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ELCBK
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No one thought the 'Elided Cadence' was cool? 

It's not new, I've noticed it in quite a few performances I've listened to over the years - pretty sure I've even heard it used sometimes in some Celtic Sets, when switching to a new tune (to help keep the momentum going)!

I just didn't have a good way to describe it!  ...and no one ever talks about it. 😒 

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ABitRusty
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hmm..sound pert nerth a walkin' bass line to me.

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Haven't looked at this thread in a VERY LONG time! 

I'm pretty confident I can answer this (NOW), from post #13!

 

ABitRusty said
I asked a question once to one of the online irish guitar instructors and as part of the answer he suggested this album is required listening.   Matt Malloy again also came up in another recent conversation as required listening forr irish, all of which has nothing to do with cadence other than the ending of Virginia reel on this track... Deceptive cadence?  thoughts?  I, up until now would have described this type of ending as ending on the question instead of the answer.. now have a better name if I got it correct..

  

 

I believe they are playing "The Virginia" in Cdor (starting at 1:24) - and the strong G→C (V→I) is an Authentic (Perfect) Cadence at the end of the phrases. 😉 

Take a listen again & see what you think ! 

It's notated as Dmaj on The Session, but even THAT makes much more sense as Edor, ending on E (same notes as Dmaj).

 

...revisited this thread because of interest in an 'Interrupted' Cadence (same as a 'Deceptive' Cadence) I recently heard in another tune.  BUT, like usual 🤨, I'm finding conflicting info: some only say it's V→VI, then I've also seen sources saying it can be ANY chord following a V (other than a 'I' chord). 

I've decided to accept the latter description. 

A deceptive cadence is a progression in which the dominant chord (V) resolves to a chord other than the tonic (I). In most cases, the dominant (V) will lead to the submediant chord (vi in major keys, VI in minor keys).

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ABitRusty
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ELCBK said
@ABitRusty -

Haven't looked at this thread in a VERY LONG time! 

I'm pretty confident I can answer this (NOW), from post #13!

 

ABitRusty said

I asked a question once to one of the online irish guitar instructors and as part of the answer he suggested this album is required listening.   Matt Malloy again also came up in another recent conversation as required listening forr irish, all of which has nothing to do with cadence other than the ending of Virginia reel on this track... Deceptive cadence?  thoughts?  I, up until now would have described this type of ending as ending on the question instead of the answer.. now have a better name if I got it correct..

  

 

I believe they are playing "The Virginia" in Cdor (starting at 1:24) - and the strong G→C (V→I) is an Authentic (Perfect) Cadence at the end of the phrases. 😉 

Take a listen again & see what you think ! 

It's notated as Dmaj on The Session, but even THAT makes much more sense as Edor, ending on E (same notes as Dmaj).

 

...revisited this thread because of interest in an 'Interrupted' Cadence (same as a 'Deceptive' Cadence) I recently heard in another tune.  BUT, like usual 🤨, I'm finding conflicting info: some only say it's V→VI, then I've also seen sources saying it can be ANY chord following a V (other than a 'I' chord). 

I've decided to accept the latter description. 

A deceptive cadence is a progression in which the dominant chord (V) resolves to a chord other than the tonic (I). In most cases, the dominant (V) will lead to the submediant chord (vi in major keys, VI in minor keys).

  

It very well could have been in cdor... idk at this moment and cant recall if i played along with it and figured that out.  Malloy uses flutes in Bb and Eb alot i think so..yeah..  BUT..  I learned it in D.   

I think what I was referring to in the quote was how that particular track ended.   The chord choice Sean Keane used.   It made the ending sound like a question instead of statement...like it was sorta floating in the air instead of being resolved TO ME.   According to the topic thread you were discussing cadences and I felt this may... or may not be classified as deceptive.

To be honest.. cadence talk doesnt happen in my circles..now chord discussions happen and how they fit with the melody.  not that shouldnt be learned or whatever... i just havent thought about since the above post or any later replies to it..

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ELCBK
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I AM talking about how The Virginia recording ended (notes G,C,C), but I made a mistake. 

The chords don't end G→C in the recording, but actually Gm→Cm chords (v→i). 

Not sure if that still counts as an authentic cadence (?) 

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Gordon Shumway
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This may be of interest, somewhere.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/.....4204037645

Andrew

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ELCBK said
I AM talking about how The Virginia recording ended (notes G,C,C), but I made a mistake. 

The chords don't end G→C in the recording, but actually Gm→Cm chords (v→i). 

Not sure if that still counts as an authentic cadence (?) 

  

yes youre correct assuming in cdor.. it wouldnt be a G to C

you can name the cadence and if you think he is resolving to Cm and thats an authentic cadence then cool!    Personally im thinking he hangs on the V for the last note.   or another chord other than the i..   when im able to sit down with it again  ill play around some and see if i feel different about it.   I need to practice The Virginia melody on fiddle again anyway... 

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ELCBK
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@Gordon Shumway -

Thanks for that short! 

Yes, I realize there's more than 1 G chord that resolves nicely to C, but it's hard to discern from the recording what they are using (hard for me, anyway). 

Could you have a listen to end of the video & tell me which one YOU think the chords are?  The Virginia starts at 1:24 in the track.

Right now, I'm leaning more toward just Gmaj→Cm (V→i), because I do feel a mood change.  I can't be completely sure of what chords I'm hearing - it's VERY hard for me to focus on anything other than the melody notes G & C. 

Plus, I'm only using the Hook Theory virtual Scale/Chords 'Cheat Sheets' for this. 

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@ABitRusty -

I understand what you are saying - I definitely feel the change in mood, kinda major to minor.  Could possibly be a Gmaj to Cm (V→i).  Can't tell if extended chords are used.

I think this topic is worth diving into - what chords we might choose depends a lot on how we identify a key, because chord functions will be different.  BUT, we can also 'borrow' chords (especially from relative & neighboring keys/modes) - our choices can definitely change the feeling/mood of a tune. 

I see 2 ways of looking at The Virginia notation - Dmaj (but I don't feel any strong ties to D), or the 'relative' key/mode of Edor (E represented strongly throughout & ends with double E's). 

The chord functions for the cadence in Dmaj are different for that B→E (nothing I see that resembles any nameable cadence) vs Edor, the B→E could be Bmaj to Em (V→i). 

In retrospect, if... the Malloy recording is seen as in Bbmaj, instead of Cdor - leaves me bewildered as to what Bbmaj chords would make sense for this G→C cadence (without borrowing chords).  🤔... seasoned corded-instrument musicians probably just have some favorite extended chords they use without thinking about the cadence.

I think extended chords really help color a mood - chord functions are 'supposed' to help us choose which to use. 

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

The cadence video (I just posted) has an interesting example, starting at 1:26 (Revali's Theme). 

It starts in a major key, but modulates to a relative minor - which might also be what's happening in The Virginia.  

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Gordon Shumway
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In the Virginia they may have rung the changes on a IV,V,I cadence, but after the IV chord (the G of Eb major), stopped dead on the note C, possibly the C of F major, the V chord. It sounds vaguely minor, maybe that's because we imagine the A of F major?

No, I think the answer is to listen more carefully to the guitar and try to work out every note it is playing. I can hear an Eb (of F7?) there. 

These are rushed speculations, as I'm on the point of shutting my machine down for the night and I want to watch the last ep of season 3 of Killing Eve before I go to bed, and partly I'm diffident because we have to be wary of assuming classical cadences in modal music.

Andrew

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ABitRusty
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thinking Arty Mcglynn stops strumming a note or two just before the ending.. so strings could be ringing with sean and matts notes..  idk.

and its common to not play the third when playing irish guitar backing.  

makes for good chat... 

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ELCBK
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@Gordon Shumway & @ABitRusty -

Thank you both for your thoughts on this! 

Hadn't originally intended to learn The Virginia, but with all this focus on it I don't think it would take me long to get it down... not sure if I want to do anything with it, though. 

I definitely want to start paying closer attention to cadence I hear played in music & start experimenting more with extended chords.

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Ive always thought this track was cool.

I think you have to liaten to the whole thing to hear what im explaining.  The first time through around 2:05 the B ending sounds more complete or resolved... the guitar is floating above them lightly and didnt even start playing till the virginia.  dont think its in george whites. 

but either from a setup of expectations or a note change or the drop of the guitar early.. that ending just feels hanging...but in a good way.. idk..probably just me.

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