Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.
Log In
Register
Home
Topic RSS
(5 votes) 
Regulars
Offline
Most Irish & Scottish tunes are fairly short...so, if I know what tunes are similar, I can use them for extending a theme, or to add variation.
Think it would be good to not only analyze where/why some tunes sound similar, but also identify related tunes - so we can start to be aware of these relationships.
Hope you all will post what you run across, along with what I find.
Jeez, I spend SO MUCH energy trying to keep tunes to themselves and in sets. I've passed over learning tunes (in the past) that remind me too much of another one because I didn't want to risk mixing them up.
Really wish (now) I'd started making a list of similar tunes (as I ran across them) - right from the start!
I do like changing the mood of a tune by changing the key/mode of a 'B' Part (if I want to stir things up beyond a few variations)... but it obviously takes me time to think it thru (can't just do it on the fly yet).
Regulars
Offline
Similar/close, or the exact same melodic contour in parts... if tunes have the same melodic contour, but completely different time signatures (like 6/8 vs 4/4) - don't think they will sound similar to me, anymore.
Some tunes have different names just because they are in a different key - which is confusing. What key a tune is in shouldn't make any difference 'if' in the same type of key (like 'Dmaj' vs Cmaj')... obviously a tune sounds different crossing from something major-sounding to something minor-sounding, but they'd still be related & feel similar playing.
I would love to print out tune contours on clear acetate & overlay them to see where they line up - just slide the whole tune around to see what matches, or comes close.
"Mug of Brown Ale Jig" has some cousins... "Humours Of Ballinafauna", "My Former Wife" & "Jackson’s Coagy".
Think "The Book of Rights Jig" is also similar to "Rose in The Heather Jig" & "Kerfunten Jig".
I really enjoy playing a setting of "Farewell to Milltown Reel". Nomatter how much I love a tune, playing the same thing over & over - gets old. I was surprised to find ALL these tunes were similar to it:
The Robin Who Ate The Blue Bag
even some of The Drunken Landlady & Pigeon on The Gate!
So, if we get accustomed to melodic 'patterns' - can't it actually be a blessing?
Instead of being confusing... maybe it's why we pick up tunes quicker when we hear something similar being played.
Regulars
Offline
I'm talking about melodic patterns, not style - even though rhythm matters.
Might go beyond a 'riff' - to large phrases, to a whole part (depending on the tune). Think it's a combination of the simpler contour shapes that make up a pattern - and I still feel a tune is similar in spite of some skipped/added notes, or using some different intervals.
It is easy to mistakenly remember one for another similar, so we have to be aware of what the similarities are... to be able to avoid pairing them.
BUT, if playing 2 tunes together causes me ANY issues... I just practice them together MORE often. ...finding it helpful to practice tunes as specific sets.
Regulars
Offline
Well, here we go - the first I ran across at thesession.org (keeping my eye out while looking at new tunes). Nice that some comments linked me to others.
Some of these settings related, mostly Gmaj...
Michael Ryan's Reel
The Gowlan Road Reel
The Road to Ballymote Reel
An Ugly Customer Reel
Regulars
Offline
@elcbk excellent topic and glad you did it!!
To me one of the most recognizable Irish reel pattern is this
it could be from the A to E string and back.. or D to A like above. or starting the run on 1st instead of 2nd finger... it just seems to be a common little couple of measures. The trick is to let the lower string notes kinda float or drone along as you hit the top notes.
EDIT
how many notes do we think a pattern makes?
🤔
Regulars
Offline
Alternating 3rds & 4ths (or 5ths) is VERY familiar! It's a zig-zag shape in the 1st measure.
how many notes do we think a pattern makes?
I see many similar groups of notes in comparing single measures (especially at the beginning of tunes), but I'm thinking 'patterns' arise/are felt more phrase related - so 2, or 4 measures (which might be repeated).
So, are you seeing the combination of BOTH measures in your example as the 'pattern shape'?
Another shape to consider (that wasn't in the chart) - is a 'wave'.
Beyond hearing intervals, I don't want to overlook the possibility that what we feel is a combination of things - like you said, I can see where just the familiar feeling of playing string crossings adds to it.
...won't take me long to 'start' a general list with zig-zags! 😊 Some of these have leaps of 6ths, too (will break this down into more closely related groups later) - and maybe more than one pattern in common, but similar feel:
Farewell to Milltown does have a little
The Grumbling Old Man And Woman Reel
& some versions of Pigeon On The Gate
There are also tunes that have this jumping 'zig-zag' shape - only inverted!
Regulars
Offline
I've still got this on my mind... how not to mix up similar tunes up.
Been thinking I might have to start making myself play some similar tunes specifically to help instill the differences, since it's obviously similarities I remember. 🙄
I was listening to Fergal Scahill play 'Jug of Punch'...
Remember the Old Tuttles's Party (FOUR YEARS AGO! 😳)?
...time sure flies!
Well, realized I was hearing Tuttle's in 'Jug of Punch' (or vice versa)! Back when I was learning Tuttles from a Kevin Burke tutorial, I don't think I was using The Session for info at that time (don't know if they even had audio playback set up yet). So, looked now to see if anyone else felt this at The Session (people usually mention similar tune info there) - and jeez, 'Tuttles' has 'Jug of Punch' listed as an alias!
...duh.
Now, I don't know why I keep hearing 'Farewell to Milltown' everwhere, but it's melodic structure feels VERY similar to 'Jug of Punch' (to me), too!
I've probably only played Tuttles a handful of times since the party, but I do play 'Farewell to Milltown' quite often. Think I'm going to learn 'Jug of Punch' & bring 'Tuttles' up - then see if it's a good (or bad) idea to get used to playing these tunes together.
I've heard plenty of 'set' recordings I thought were variations on a tune, only to find out later they were called different tunes.
🤔... probably why I see so many 'set names'... too many tune names to remember!
Regulars
Offline
i dont hear tuttles in jug of punch. farewell to milltown yes. The only thing about tuttles and jug of punch together for me would be the opening ascending line and both be darker modal. put a major tune in between would help. or experiment with which one first.
my take.
yhings like that are a big consideration when picking sets. depends on if its by myself... or if presenting to a bunch of people that arent expecting it.
ive heard several people that play on stage talk about things like this and its a concern. they definately plan and think about it. Its very easy to mix up tunes in the middle of playing. kinda would be embarrasing on stage i would think. no big deal really in sesh.. maybe good for a laugh. but could be annoying.
at home id juat keep trying till i got it.
Regulars
Offline
@ABitRusty -
I see your point - thanks, things I don't think about.
I'd figure the tunes we know best & keep the freshest would always win out, but the more years people play, it has to be harder to keep from mixing tune parts.
If I can just start remembering tune names in sets, I'll have a better chance at remembering the individual tunes with their names - maybe a first step in keeping tunes straight in my mind (mind before fingers).
Right now, I have the exact opposite - tunes I remember to play together, but I easily forget the names. ...still have to do something about tunes I've learned with names in other languages - I kinda see them in my mind, but not clear enough to spell any (like in a fog). Translation doesn't really help.
Be fun to just visit a session, someday. The closest session (to me) prides itself in being a branch of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann - they have a beginner and intermediate session. Strictly ITM, obviously. Even if I got to the point of fitting in, ITM is only a part of my musical interest.
I can't even be expected to know the same version of a tune as someone else, let alone the same set (nor do I want to). All-in-all, my best bet is practice more comping, so nomatter where I go (when I'm able to go), nomatter what the music, I'll fit in.
Regulars
Offline
i do good to play phrases alot of the time ..let alone the whole tune. 😉🙂 something about my brain gets scrambled and i cant seem to catch the wave and stand up...🤣 that being said..when you are able you should at least give yourself one visit or two. Yah never know.
Mouse
Fiddlerman
ELCBK
