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SynCoPAtiOn!
Rhythm
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (19 votes) 
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ABitRusty
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May 11, 2023 - 6:41 pm
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elcbk you should enlist a drummers help.  😉🙂 

 

https://youtu.be/ORTRBXblOzA

 

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty , @Gordon Shumway -

Thank you both for keeping me going until I get answers! 

I still think 'swung' 8th notes cause syncopation because they accent the backbeat.

..."displaced backbeat' caught my attention. 

 

I've cleared the cobwebs from my brain (well some of them) & I know there's differing opinions, but I've decided when it comes to Polyrhythms - they ARE syncopated!  The rhythms played individually aren't necessarily, but when they are played simultaneously - they ARE syncopated!  Hemiolas ARE a 'syncopated' Polyrhythm! 

Polyrhythms ALWAYS have at least one rhythm with an UNEVEN number of beats.   

Syncopation is easy to experience with this 7:3 polyrhythm example at 1:28 in this video:

Understanding 'Polyrhythms' & 'Polymeters' lets me see that a rhythm with an even number of beats played along with a rhythm of it's subdivisions can never be syncopated - UNLESS something else is done to it...

I did a lot more reading (a lot) and there are more types of Syncopation than just playing on an 'offbeat' and some syncopated music can still have a strong '1' beat, but all really need to be referenced against a standard 4/4 beat. 

  1. Even Note Accent - e.g., accent on the '2' & '4' backbeats, instead of the standard '1' & '3' of 4/4 time. 
  2. Remove a Beat - replace a strong beat with a rest. 
  3. Suspend a Beat -  tie a note to a strong beat, changes it to weak. 
  4. Offbeat Accent - accent on anything between standard beats. 
  5. Rhythmic Displacement - shift a whole pattern forward or backward by an 8th note, or smaller. 
  6. Harmonic Accent - think cadence, a strong chord on a weak beat changes that beat to strong. 

It's apparent me now - my feelings extend past 'Syncopation', to include: 'Groove', 'Swing' & 'Funk'

When Louis Armstrong was asked on the Bing Crosby radio show what swing was, he said, "Ah, swing, well, we used to call it syncopation—then they called it ragtime, then blues—then jazz. Now, it's swing. Ha! Ha! White folks, yo'all sho is a mess."

I hope more people will think of syncopation with bowing. 
...a little syncopation can help make a great groove! 

 

What Is Syncopation in Music and Why It Matters

Syncopation, Swing and Groove

Expand Your Backbeats: Rhythmic Displacement, Polyrhythm & Syncopation

Syncopation and Groove in Polyphonic Music: Patterns Matter

What is Swing? The Basics of Jazz Rhythm Explained

Harmonic cadences and tonal music

Syncopation

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ABitRusty
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May 12, 2023 - 7:58 pm
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can you share a video of a single fiddler playing a polyrhythm?  And i mean that literally.  A lone fiddler or violinists playing a polyrhythm in a tune thats not a how to video.

I cant ( share a video of that ).. so asking if you or anyone else can.  at least as defined by videos in topic. 

still not sure on the term.

elcbk said "Thank you both for keeping me going until I get answers! "

OH!...I missed that the thread was a question.. thought it was a lesson.

😉 🙂

whats the question?

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ELCBK
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May 12, 2023 - 10:38 pm
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@ABitRusty -

Sure, right off the top of my head, Paco Moltavo - plays a couple of Bulerías in the Flamenco Rhythm Thread

Sorry, my post was purely my excitement over finding meaning in what I'd been looking for - tried to wrap my head around this stuff I've been hearing/feeling for a very long time. 

All done, for now.  

I'll keep swinging notes, changing up my rhythm & playing along with interesting rhythms, but making backing tracks & looping will really lend itself to polyrhythms - that's my plan, anyway.  It's just been very hard for me to break from playing only melodies. 

...new perspective, new day tomorrow. 🤗  

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ELCBK
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May 13, 2023 - 9:31 am
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Okay, I couldn't stay away. 

Still have thoughts racing through my head about how syncopation relates to groove - and I now see I've heard it in all the great music I've listened to since I was a teenager (and still want to play)! 

Up until now, I've been searching for ways to keep harmony & rhythm linear/horizontal to play on my violin or viola, even extended with a 5th string - but that is going to change. 

...gettin' psyched!   ...maybe scaring myself.  

 

Took some great workshops with Duane at Fiddle Hell... just wish I had a little more confidence. 

 

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ELCBK
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May 16, 2023 - 6:25 pm
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I think Latin music has a wonderful feel because of the syncopated rhythms! 

 

André J Donawa playing "No Habla"! 

 

YES!... I loved the music in the 1961 film West Side Story. 😊 

Happy Scales for Duo YT Channel also has an animated fingerboard that can help beginners.

 

- Emily

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Fiddlerman
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May 17, 2023 - 2:18 pm
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There are easier and more difficult sub-divisions going on in every polyrhythm.
Most people have a version of 3 against 2, or what have you, that is not exact, but works out fine, and possibly better, when you listen to it or play it.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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ELCBK
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May 17, 2023 - 7:16 pm
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Woo Hoo! 

I finally found the 'proper' terminology for my seeing a polyrhythm as 'linear'! 

"Composite" Rhythm (polyrhythm)!  

https://www.richardhodges.com/ladzekpo/Graphics/8FIGURE_8.GIF

When a polyrhythm is viewed this way, the pattern can easily be done with the bow, or pizzicato! 

 

I'm still fascinated with all these polyrhythms - especially ones involving 3 beats! 

Since I like to swing notes and 'borrow' time, I want to be more familiar with & use/play these uneven rhythms! 

3:4 Polyrhythm!

 

Uneven Polyrhythms like "Tresillo" can be found in Spain, Cuba, Latin America, and from Morocco to Indonesia! 

Tresillo in Indian Music! 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/be/fb/83befbf859bfd6dbe1f3308cdf60ba94.jpg

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ELCBK
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May 18, 2023 - 12:46 pm
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Sorry, I had to edit my previous 2 posts.  I've since found better info that helps me explain what I like about these rhythms AND hopefully help everyone see we can play them on our Violin, Viola & Cello. 🤗

Clave Rhythms   

There are 3 types of common Clave Rhythms that form the basis of many different kinds of Latin music!  "Son" Clave, "Rumba" Clave and "African" (or 6/8) Clave

They might be viewed as a type of Polyrhythm, but each of these 2-part rhythms do NOT have beats space evenly. 

We can still play them as a 'Composite' Rhythm! 

I personally think it's better to see these as a ONE bar rhythm, but they are represented here as 2 - for the sake of learning. 

'Son' & 'Rumba' clave can be played either 3-2 OR 2-3.  I read the '6/8' clave is ONLY played in a 3-2 direction, but may depend where played. 

https://www.libertyparkmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/clave-bars-1-10.pngImage Enlarger

 

I have found 'seeing' these rhythms animated in videos

more helpful to me than just counting, or clapping. 

 

Son & Rumba Clave

 

6/8 Clave

You can hear the 6/8 Clave rhythm (played only on a cowbell) at 00:47 - where I have made this video start. 

 

Found a wonderful French site that explains these VERY well (simple, straight forward), with great MIDI examples - some is self-explanatory, googly translate is helpful!

Rythme de la clave

 

Unlike in Brazilian music, where rhythms similar to the clave are played loosely and with variations, in traditional Cuban music, the clave is played throughout the song without any variation whatsoever.  https://www.libertyparkmusic.c.....ent-clave/

 

*Btw, I'm never 'teaching' ANYTHING - I'm not qualified.  I'm just sharing what info/sources I run across & what I'm learning (all open to discussion).  Writing about it helps me sort out what it can mean for me playing the Violin & Viola - might help others here. 

- Emily

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Gordon Shumway
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May 18, 2023 - 1:48 pm
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I am not a dancer, but Latin rhythms make me want to dance. 4/4 makes me want to march. 3/4 is neither here nor there for me, and bowing it on the violin can be a pita.

Andrew

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ELCBK
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May 20, 2023 - 6:27 pm
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@Gordon Shumway -

I'd be doing an awful funny march to a Strathspey. 🤪

Waltzes make me think of Ice Skating & Birds catching bugs mid-air! 

 

There are MORE types of music that use syncopation - music that has been played on Violin, Viola & Cello!   

Talk about syncopation starts at 04:38 minutes into the video.

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a6/00/60/a6006069355450dba5cb972a123edd6b.jpg

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ELCBK
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May 20, 2023 - 7:03 pm
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This is for the Mathematically inclined! 

I'm not really, but I think everyone can understand this - great examples!

Euclidean Rhythms Part 1: Maximum Evenness, Maximum Groove

 

In order to understand how Euclid's algorithm made its way into music, we first have to talk about nuclear physics (yes, really). 

 

The maximally-even quality of these so-called Euclidean rhythms strike a balance between regularity (they never stray too far from a regular beat) and syncopation.

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0b/a8/df/0ba8dfceaa16c47b713cbed42c1e6b34.jpg

 

Very cool - 😄  ...not sure I'm up to generating my own groove, but my brain hasn't exploded, yet. 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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May 20, 2023 - 9:27 pm
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willafjord=syncopation

🙂

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ELCBK
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May 20, 2023 - 11:01 pm
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@ABitRusty - 

Great example!

Syncopation is EVERYWHERE!

“In other words, think of walking along with one foot in the ditch, bopping along, and you’ll get the rhythm!” (The Session)

coffee

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ABitRusty
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May 21, 2023 - 12:27 am
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ELCBK said

“In other words, think of walking along with one foot in the ditch, bopping along, and you’ll get the rhythm!” (The Session

 

brilliant...you couldve just put that in post 1 and been done..🤣

 

or this for a visual 😉

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/nXi.....ture=share

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ELCBK
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May 21, 2023 - 8:49 am
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...looking back through this thread - post #4. 

Can't believe it has taken me this long to finally be able to look at the sheet music for Freemount Bypass (4/4) & Absinthe (3/4) - and spot EXACTLY where the syncopation occurs! 

I could always feel syncopation really well when Dezi & Sharon play it in the Freemount Bypass Video, but only heard/saw unusual accents 'on' some of the beats - NOW I hear/see the accents on the 'offbeat' eighth notes in some of the measures (they're not in every bar).   The way it is played in the video still sounds different than how it is notated at thesession.org - and I try to make sure the syncopation is expressed when I play it.

Guess Freemount Bypass is also a 'Crooked' tune!  There's an extra note AND accent on the 3rd offbeat in measure 4, plus offbeats in bars 2, 6, 7, in the 'A' part.  There's an offbeat in the 4th bar of the 'B' part - it would be more noticeable if the 3rd beat was notated as 2 eighth notes, with the 2nd a half step higher & accented.  I'm hearing some other additional notes in the recording that aren't notated on the sheet music.  Plus, there is still a whole 'C' part that has syncopation, for Freemount Bypass - it is also NOT notated at The Session! 

Wish I was comfortable notating.  I still run into trouble because I want show a better representation of what I feel the note values & phrasing is, but end up with ALL my measures 'crooked'! 

Give me another year... geez, I am pretty slow. 

Chicken On Head Smiley

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ABitRusty
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May 23, 2023 - 12:06 am
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here you go

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ELCBK
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May 23, 2023 - 7:41 pm
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😳 ...I'll NEVER be a drummer.

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Gordon Shumway
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ELCBK said
😳 ...I'll NEVER be a drummer.

Percussion doesn't come automatically. It requires the right talent/aptitude + practice, just like any other musical instrument. For our uke group I bought a cowbell and maracas, but they are not easy to play with perfect rhythm without practice.

Howard Goodall has haters, but I like him and suspect that his analyses are at the right level for you.

Something I could have mentioned earlier is that a word like syncopation can only have meaning in contexts where syncopation is not the norm. So in Latin American music it has no meaning. All Latin American music is/sounds syncopated in comparison with Haydn.

Andrew

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ELCBK
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Gordon Shumway said:

Something I could have mentioned earlier is that a word like syncopation can only have meaning in contexts where syncopation is not the norm. So in Latin American music it has no meaning. All Latin American music is/sounds syncopated in comparison with Haydn.  

😩 Latin American rhythms have precisely the context of 'not being the norm' HERE when you consider what rhythms 'most' Fiddlers might play everyday! 

If you like syncopated rhythm (like I do), it sounds GREAT on any of the bowed string instruments - so where do we find it?  Latin American music is one place! 

...but, there's still others! 

Violin Boogie Woogie Shuffle with the 12 Bar Blues TUTORIAL - from Jonathon H Warren!

 

"The Syncopated Clock" by Leroy Anderson.

 

Sound familiar? 

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