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Time Signatures
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ELCBK
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@stringy -

Thank you very much! 

I have a subscription to Fiddlevideo, so I was able to listen to Kevin Burke's full lesson on Irish Dance Rhythms. 

From what I understand, the "Odd Slip Jig" and random beat "Polka" I tried to describe, are unique to Sliabh luachra. 

If you do get a chance to visit there, maybe you can find out more. 

Meanwhile, you've helped me find more cool music! 

https://rushymountain.com/tunes/ 

https://friendsofsliabhluachra.....umblr.com/

https://www.youtube.com/user/k.....ideos/   (counted 265 video)

https://www.juliaclifford.eu/

 

https://johnpauloshea.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Sliabh-Luachra-Music-Trail.jpg

 

...more treasure! 🤗

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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like he read this thread and answered

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Smiley Broke Apart Smiley 

Freaky, but perfect timing!  

Guess I should have started this thread AFTER watching all of Adam Neely's videos!

Isochronal Pulses - seen weird articles about changing your brain chemistry with these (for the good). 

Entrainment - "synchronizing motor activity with external stimuli - dancing" (Adam Neely) 🤗

💖 "The more we understand, the more we can connect - then the more we can get out of music and Cultures we were previously unfamiliar with." (Adam Neely)

💖 "Ignorance is not just not knowing things - it's also the inability to connect with people... and that can lead to ugliness." (Adam Neely)

9/8 music - some of my favorite music (thank you Disney!). 

Great explanation/examples of aksak rhythms! 

Thanx, Greg! 

giphy.gif

 

...folk dances help us understand music! 

- Emily 

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ABitRusty
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ELCBK said
@stringy -

Thank you very much! 

I have a subscription to Fiddlevideo, so I was able to listen to Kevin Burke's full lesson on Irish Dance Rhythms. 

From what I understand, the "Odd Slip Jig" and random beat "Polka" I tried to describe, are unique to Sliabh luachra. 

If you do get a chance to visit there, maybe you can find out more. 

Meanwhile, you've helped me find more cool music! 

https://rushymountain.com/tunes/ 

https://friendsofsliabhluachra.....umblr.com/

https://www.youtube.com/user/k...../videos/ 

https://www.juliaclifford.eu/

 

https://johnpauloshea.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Sliabh-Luachra-Music-Trail.jpg

 

...more treasure! 🤗

- Emily

  

this one?

yes!  great info..  several that ive got in the tune book under polkas. I just figured they were from that region of Ireland where Polkas come from..lol   like the info and better know..gives an area to explore

liked the youtube video!  

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ELCBK
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September 10, 2021 - 12:02 am
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Time... after Time... after Time... after Time... after... Time...  

Marching in Jig Time - Shantalla

Don't think I've posted this video, but it's great for helping to learn how to hear the difference between 3/4 & 6/8 time. (David Bennet Piano) 

What's the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 time?

Here's what's been labeled, "The Strangest Waltz Ever: Asymmetrical Compound Meter".

The Stranglers "Golden Brown" 1981

12/8 time shifts to 13/8 time; who knew an extra eighth note could change so much?

Analysis: Beginning with an usual intro on the keyboard with chords on the harpsichord in the background, the song can most straightforwardly be analyzed with its initial riff expressed in 13/8 time. This provides for an eighth note grouping of 3+3+3+4. This meter gives way to a more conventional 12/8 time at :17 in (on the video recording linked above). 12/8 is the time signature used for the sung portions of the song as well as a part of the guitar solo, which begins very softly at 1:53 in the song. The 13/8 riff reappears, almost like a motif, several times throughout the song. (rebelmusicteacher.com) 

 

Did I get you in time?

- Emily

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ELCBK
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September 11, 2021 - 4:43 pm
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I've seen several tunes I liked that I noticed had a mix of 3/4 & 4/4 time in them - I'll try to dig them up later.

Odd Time, 3/4 & 4/4 vs. 7/4 Time, Shuffle Time - all described here.  Maybe when you hear some of the songs in this video, it will remind you that... 

ODD TIME is SO COOL! 

Songs that use 7/4 time - David Bennett Piano

 

- Emily

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JohnG
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Without a doubt, my favorite 7/4 time piece, Dave Brubeck's Unsquare Dance.

The old curmudgeon!

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JohnG
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Dave Brubeck had two signature albums with unusual time signatures, Time Out and Time Further Out. Here are the tunes on the albums with their nominal time signatures. In case you can't tell, I'm a huge fan of the group's work!

Time Out

"Blue Rondo à la Turk" – 9/8 & 4/4
"Strange Meadow Lark" – Undesignated then 4/4 swing
"Take Five" – 5/4
"Three to Get Ready" – 3/4 & 4/4
"Kathy's Waltz" – 4/4 then double waltz, then both
"Everybody's Jumpin'" – 6/4
"Pick Up Sticks" – 6/4

Time Further Out

"It's a Raggy Waltz" – 3/4
"Bluette" – 3/4
"Charles Matthew Hallelujah" – 4/4
"Far More Blue" – 5/4
"Far More Drums" – 5/4
"Maori Blues" – 6/4
"Unsquare Dance" – 7/4
"Bru's Boogie Woogie" – 8/8
"Blue Shadows in the Street" – 9/8

The old curmudgeon!

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ELCBK
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September 12, 2021 - 11:23 pm
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@JohnG -

Great! 

I was hoping you saw that David Bennett talked about how important Dave Brubeck's music was. 

So much of the music I loved when I was growing up - turns out to have unusual time signatures, e.g., Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, The Beatles, etc... 

Crooked Tunes will have strange time signatures - or they'll just sound/play strange because most of the early crooked tunes were handed down by ear, and it seems Fiddlers are not real particular about perfecting music scores.

Liz Carroll is a pretty famous Irish-American Fiddler & Composer - just found out she's my age!  Anyway, she composed quite a few tunes in different time signatures.  Both of these are in 7/8 time (?), but I see people at thesession.org couldn't notate them that way. 

The Fruit and the Snoot / On the Offbeat - Liz Carroll

 

 

Really drawn to "On The Offbeat"!

🤔... I'm starting to get a clearer picture as to what I really like to hear in music. 

- Emily

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AndrewH
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Ah, yes -- Dave Brubeck is a favorite of mine.

Looking earlier, though, it might be fun to listen to some Bulgarian folk dances. Bulgaria is especially known for having a lot of folk dances in unusual meters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ian_dances

 

I've also played a lot of unusual meters in orchestral music, especially modern music or music that draws from non-European traditions. I've posted Carlos Chavez's Sinfonia India elsewhere; listen again and you'll hear a lot of 5/8 time and occasional 7/8 measures.

 

But you sometimes see it in more conventional music as well, for certain effects. For example, in the second movement of Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony, he uses 5/4 time to create the effect of an off-kilter waltz:

 

And Howard Hanson used 5/4 time in the first movement of his 1st Symphony to evoke a stark Nordic landscape:

 

Sometimes you get interesting effects from alternating measures, or freely going back and forth between two time signatures. For example, in the first movement of Ernest Bloch's Concerto Grosso No. 1, Bloch simply put both C and 2/4 at the beginning, and went back and forth between 4/4 and 2/4 time, sometimes alternating and sometimes having longer stretches in one meter or the other.

 

Meanwhile, in Borodin's Symphony No. 2, one of the main themes in the fourth movement has a sort of 5/4 effect, as it alternates between 3/4 and 2/4 measures.

 

Once you get into modernism, you see more and more unconventional time signatures. One of the most fascinating rhythmic adventures in all of orchestral music is "Sensemayá" by the Mexican composer Silvestre Revueltas. It's mostly in 7/8 time, with excursions into other time signatures along the way. Most unusually, it has three measures in 5-1/2 / 8, seen in the score at 4:47 of this recording:

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ELCBK
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@AndrewH -

Great Examples! 

Pointing out all the time oddities in those Classical examples is really very helpful!  

Thank you! 

 

Right now, I wish there there were more Fiddlers, like Kevin Burke, that would point out better ways Fiddle tunes should be notated.  

It's painfully obvious I grew up appreciating some great popular/rock music in the 70's and 80's, but never knew why - other than maybe there was good harmony or different rhythm. 

Thanks to the inspiration I've found on this forum (🥰), I'm slowly finding there's so much more going on!  ...only problem - right now, I'm playing mostly 'Fiddle Tunes'!    

It's frustrating that I can hear when things are off, but I still basically need to be told what it is that's off.  I can only guess if polyrhythms are throwing me off, or if it's irregular meters, odd phrases, even clever modulation - but I can't be sure, yet.

AND, can't trust 'Fiddle Tune' sheet music to be accurately notated well enough to use for more than the pitch of notes - so... the more examples of specific timing & other features of 'Crooked' tunes, the better!

Anyone know anything specific about other 'Odd Time', syncopated or 'Crooked' FIDDLE tunes?

 

Probably the only reason I'm even enjoying Fiddle tunes is because I can find good aural & visual examples to learn from! 

...maybe someday I'll get comfortable enough with all the different ways I can use music notation, so I can write down what I hear & play, for others - we'll see. 😊

                                          - Emily

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ABitRusty
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@elcbk speaking of Mr. Burke... you can get a book of his solo albums transcribed exactly as he played them here..

https://www.kevinburke.com/the.....lo-albums/

 

EDIT**

also...

about halfway in or so Liz Carrol discusses on and off beat playing and such..  lots of other good and interesting takes.

https://blarneypilgrims.fireside.fm/22

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Hey, that's a GREAT! 

Will order right now - Thanks!  

Liz Carroll's album has a lot of interesting tunes.  I suppose I'll have to see if the CD liner notes anything more helpful than what I've already found. 

On The Offbeat - Playlist

Just Being Contented Smiley

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

MORE THANKS!!!!! 

 

 

Btw, I really appreciate you informing me about podcast highlights - my attn span is less than desirable. (lol)  

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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iiz Carroll transcription books

https://lizcarroll.com/liz-s-t.....-collected

 

have you picked up any of the portland books? ;)

lot of people like the old O Niels book.  seems too busy for me.  

 

ryans mammoth collection book is close to O Niels imo.. pretty detailed..

this guy has put together a great youtube channel based on it.   if i ever get need help with one of the tunes from that book, Ill check him first.

 

i know youre talking about crooked tunes/odd meters.. but all these in answer to the notation portion of post.  maybe somwthing in these helpful.  i think ive shared links before but easier to find here.

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ABitRusty
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It's frustrating that I can hear when things are off, but I still basically need to be told what it is that's off.  I can only guess if polyrhythms are throwing me off, or if it's irregular meters, odd phrases, even clever modulation - but I can't be sure, yet.

are you talking about what you play versus say a Liz Carroll recording?   in other words why what youre trying to play doesnt match someone?

for me, the ornaments can be tricky when a recording is moving fast.  also a second fiddle being played or say a cello or whatever in a recording... seperating whats what gets tricky.

I think starting with the most basic version and building up from there helps me.  just the most basic of notes to get the meat of a melody.  then trying to add all the other stuff and speed when the basic melody is down.  trying to concentrate on everything all at once is confusing.  

professional artists that release fiddle albums may not be able to release transcription due to contracts and such.  possible reason for a favorite artists music not being exact as heard.  i dunno...sounds like a thing..lol. 

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Thanks for the link to Liz Carroll books - I've only just started listening to her music. 

Geez, now I want to learn her no-name tune she said came to mind - as an early tune she composed on accordion!  At 23 min into podcast - LOVE IT! 

I think you're right about musician's original works, but Fiddler's have always seemed more about sharing.  ...then again, I really don't want to help create starving professional artists!   Guess that's a whole other rabbit hole! (lol)

Know you're also right about thesession.org.  Lately, been trying not to get ticked off anymore when I feel disappointment, looking to The Session for any clarity on a tune. 

Anyway, the more I learn here - the better I think I can learn to listen, and eventually learn to play more of these fascinating tunes! 

 

 

...maybe just impatient. 🙄 

- Emily

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ABitRusty
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when i hear a new tune the first place ill visit looking for a transcription is the session.  probably best place to start.  you just have to find the version thats closest to what youve heard that ypure trying to play.  obviously things like kesh for instance are pretty standard but some of the more deep catalog stuff just may be close.  you still may have to tweak it for your liking..   i dont know if a transcription gets "approved" or looked at so i assume anyone could upload "their" take on a tune and theres not neccessarily a "correct" version so alot is left to you to find what you like.  definately not complaining about the site.  i was just pointing out ( some post ago )  that a tune may not be "official" and may be close but not without needing some changes here or there for your taste.

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stringy
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iFIDDLE said
when i hear a new tune the first place ill visit looking for a transcription is the session.  probably best place to start.  you just have to find the version thats closest to what youve heard that ypure trying to play.  obviously things like kesh for instance are pretty standard but some of the more deep catalog stuff just may be close.  you still may have to tweak it for your liking..   i dont know if a transcription gets "approved" or looked at so i assume anyone could upload "their" take on a tune and theres not neccessarily a "correct" version so alot is left to you to find what you like.  definately not complaining about the site.  i was just pointing out ( some post ago )  that a tune may not be "official" and may be close but not without needing some changes here or there for your taste.

  

For what its worth, if you ever go to Ireland and listen to the same tune in different cou ties you will get a hundred different versions. A book on fiddle tunes in my opinion can only ever be a guide, most  Irish fiddlers learn by ear,, I  must have heard fifty different versions of maid behind the bar for instance, a good fiddler will turn up at a session listen to what they are playing and almost immediately join in, even when they have never heard the tune in their life. greatest skill I have ever seen and would love to be able to do the same myself, so I agree with you entirely

Bit more, bit more, snap #*÷?×[email protected]?#[email protected]

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ELCBK
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I genuinely want to understand everything about music that sounds like it has unusual timing - especially Fiddle Tunes. 

Desperately looking for more examples of these tunes - and someone who can describe the unusual features.  🥰

It's frustrating that I can hear when things are off, but I still basically need to be told what it is that's off.  I can only guess if polyrhythms are throwing me off, or if it's irregular meters, odd phrases, even clever modulation - but I can't be sure, yet.

AND, can't trust 'Fiddle Tune' sheet music to be accurately notated well enough to use for more than the pitch of notes - so... the more examples of someone talking about specific timing & other features of 'Crooked' tunes, the better!

Anyone know anything specific about other 'Odd Time', syncopated or 'Crooked' FIDDLE tunes?

 

Probably the only reason I'm even enjoying Fiddle tunes is because I can find good aural & visual examples to learn from! 

...maybe someday I'll get comfortable enough with all the different ways I can use music notation, so I can write down what I hear & play, for others - we'll see. 😊

                                          - Emily

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