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How does an instructor teach you to play in tune?
Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 (49 votes) 
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Picklefish
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April 3, 2013 - 9:59 am
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Composer said
The only technique for learning a scale I have come across is Dorothy Delay's technique. You play the perfect intervals first -- the tonic (the note of the key), the 4th, the 5th, and then the octave, and then back down (5th, 4th, tonic). Then you add the leading tones so you do 1-3-4-5-7-8 then back down in reverse, 8-7-5-4-3-1. Then you add the second and the sixth, where you have more discretion, for the whole scale.

  The point of doing it this way is that the perfect intervals must be exactly placed -- there is no room for taste. The leading tones can then be tuned against those notes (3rd against the 4th, 7th against the 8th). Then you can place the 2nd and 6th.

But all of this assumes you can reliably determine by ear the perfect intervals of 4th, 5th, and the octave.  This is a skill that has to be learned on your own, I don't see how an instructor can really help here.

 

You said the only technique youve come accross is Dorothy Delays technique. You then said you dont see how an instructor can help here. I assume you think that only people who can already distinguish pitch by ear are the only ones who can learn violin then?

I believe this can be learned and taught as Mrs Delay did. I can tell the difference between in tune and not on certain strings by the way the instrument vibrates. The sympathetic vibrations are a stronger feeling, it sounds different almost echoey. Compared to that sharp sounds tinny and flat sounds dull. I know not all notes do this and its not purely tone recognition but Ive learned what the right tone should sound and feel like....surely thats the road to success with this is it not? The only thing missing from that are the sparkly sticky stars on the fingerboard.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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FiJaPAW
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April 3, 2013 - 10:47 am
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I suggest everyone talking about people being born with an ear for music read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....n_On_Music

 

It's such an educational book that touches on everything. Composer, you also might find it helpful. Recognizing pitches and intervals takes practice. Some people have to work harder than others. 

I am a violinist cycling around the world with my dog, Fiji, and my violin. http://www.FiJaPAW.com

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Picklefish
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I put it on hold over the libraries internet catalogue search. Its coming to my local library from the central library! Thanks for posting that, yay libraries! I should be able to pick it up tommorow.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Composer

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Pierre, how does playing your 1-octave scales as written help the student recognize intervals?  All that happens is that the student memorizes a sequence of tones if done frequently enough.  The document contains no mention of intervals.

I also don't understand how the intonation game improves playing in tune if the student cannot already do so.  The game presents two tones, and the player is asked if the girls tone is higher or lower than yours.  That is an ear training exercise which is designed to develop a more sensitive ear to detect whether the pitch is higher or lower.  If the student has no idea how to play in tune, its of no help.

 

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April 3, 2013 - 11:34 pm
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pfish, Delay's technique resides in a book which anyone can buy.  So does the other technique (3rd/combination/tartini tone) which is controversial because lots of instructors do not recommend bothering with it because its very hard to hear the 3rd tone.

What frustrates me to no end is the instructor run around that goes like this:

Student:  How do you play in tune without some external aid?

Instructor:  Play scales

Student:  Same problem.

Instructor:  [various handwaving stuff]

When a beginner listens to an electronic synthesized scale in some key, as an aid to learning to play the same scale on a violin, is the student ever thinking intervally?  Of course not.  99.9% of the scale books out there don't even mention the word 'interval'.  So why does Pierre just assume interval recognition will pop out of the aether?

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Composer said
That is an ear training exercise which is designed to develop a more sensitive ear to detect whether the pitch is higher or lower.  If the student has no idea how to play in tune, its of no help.

 

I would argue the opposite, how can a student play in tune if they can't tell whether they are sharp or flat?   If I am unable to tell if a pitch is higher or lower than another, perfect fifths won't mean anything either.   

I think learning scales teaches this because you hear the pitches ascending and descending (getting higher and lower), it trains your ear to recognize those intervals.   

 

I do see your point though that you just end up learning the pattern, and can't recognize intervals that aren't next to each other and it should be part of learning the scales.    Along with patterns like 123-234-345-567-678 etc.    But you have to start with the basics.

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RosinedUp

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Composer, would I be wrong to say that the common theme running through your posts is that it is practically impossible to learn to play the violin?laugh

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Ferret
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RosinedUp said
Composer, would I be wrong to say that the common theme running through your posts is that it is practically impossible to learn to play the violin?laugh

I get the same feeling. blurry_drunk-2127

To me a 'perfect fifth' is 750 ml or one fifth of a gallon of really good whisky. rofl

 

Seen it all. Done it all. Can't remember most of dunno ..... What was I saying???? facepalm

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Picklefish
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It is practically impossible to learn any of the fiddle class of instruments. Even impossibler still to rise to the upper levels of ability. Thats the challenge and fun of doing it! Its addicting, gimme more!!!

As far as Delay goes she was a student and disciple of Galamian, so it would make sense that her process of teaching came from him. I read she also had a much more laid back style than Galamian and didnt beilieve in a one size fits all "method". She was interested in how that individual could be the best they could be. I am interested in reading a book about her thoughts on violin.

As far as teaching how to play notes in tune with ear training only and no visual aids, it just takes longer. IMO most people equate playing or improving with playing actual tunes and are willing to sort out intonation later. Since it would be next to impossible for a non musical child with non musical parents to  practice in between lessons each week until the child learned the notes, its not a preferred teaching method.

Work smarter not harder........What if there was a way to satisfy all of composers thoughts and keep the student/parents happy and motivated? I dunno bout that.....

what is wrong with visual aides that ballpark you and you are then taught to listen for the right tone? Why not make learning as easy as possible? I understand the concern that the student will stop listening and focus on the markers but what if the teacher keeps the focus on the tone?

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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StoneDog
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Composer said
When a beginner listens to an electronic synthesized scale in some key, as an aid to learning to play the same scale on a violin, is the student ever thinking intervally?  Of course not.  99.9% of the scale books out there don't even mention the word 'interval'.  So why does Pierre just assume interval recognition will pop out of the aether?

It would be a process > the student would eventually figure out with studies that the scales are made up of all these little intervals. The playing of scales teaches the student that the little intervals within the scale have a repetitive value when getting onto modes etc. The term scale is simply a name for the group. I personally don't even think of the intervals as scales anymore when I am playing but simply intervals > When I started playing {guitar} I learned by way of scales and eventually what I had learned from doing scales was the whole interval thing. To assume that by having a student do repetitive scales is fruitless is ignorant to the process.
In tune > a waveform pleasant to the ear > thats all it is. When two are playing together the waveforms need to match or the two will be out of tune. If you play one waveform on a piece of wire supported by some wood in some cave all by yourself you are in tune to yourself, so its all relevant to the scenario one is in.
I enjoy the discussions you bring up Composer, they make one think about this whole music thing and it is good food for thought but dude you need to try one of Ferret's fifths and enjoy your instrument.
Still waiting for a vid by you. All talk and no walk make for a weak impression.

 

 

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Picklefish
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The only book I could find is a biography of Mrs Delay, "Teaching Genius". Is that the book?

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Fiddlerman
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April 4, 2013 - 8:20 pm
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I give up. LOL
I studied one summer with Dorothy Delay btw.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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FiJaPAW
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There's too much thinking going on in this thread.

Don't think, and instead "do" what sounds or feels good. Does it sound good? No further analysis needed.  Does it sound bad? Then it must've been out of tune (or insert other problem). Let me see what I can do to make it better. Move my finger up a little. Oops, that didn't work. Move my finger down a little. Ah, there we go! Problem solved.

In essence, listening and building off of what you like and don't like is key. I think people who play out of tune are not listening to the music and instead focusing on all the other intervals of violin playing at that moment. Oh, is my bow straight?  Did I at least put my fingers down in the general area? Am I on the sounding point? Why doesn't this sound right? The last question is asked without an effort to fix the problem.

I've been around so-called "tone deaf" people. We played songs in tune for them, and they enjoyed it. We played songs out of tune for them, and they hated it, but could not give a reason why they hated it. So, they can tell when stuff doesn't sound right. So, build learning correct intonation off of the simple foundation that, "Hey, that didn't sound right. Most likely, it's because it was out of tune." 

I am a violinist cycling around the world with my dog, Fiji, and my violin. http://www.FiJaPAW.com

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Picklefish
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I give up. LOL I studied one summer with Dorothy Delay btw.

 

 

Id love to hear about that if you have time to type it up one day!

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Fiddlerman
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April 4, 2013 - 10:53 pm
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When I was going to the Congress of Strings one summer, Dorothy Delay was a guest to give master classes. I played for her and she offered for me to take several lessons. I just took advantage of the situation.

It was a long time ago but I do remember how personable she was and how interested she actually seemed in things that even did not even involve playing the violin. She focused on my problems and was very positive towards my music making. I liked her a lot but I don't remember too many specifics. She had a talk about the way I was holding the violin among other things, LOL. I made a lot of changes back then.
Also, a lot of talk about the repertoire that I need to cover in order to get into Juilliard... I wasn't really interested except for that I wanted to study with her in the future. :-)

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Composer

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Fiddlerman: "Learn scales. Scales consist of proper intervals and patterns for your fingers. Work on scales that correspond to the pieces you are working on."

I don't understand what Pierre means by "proper intervals".  Surely, all the pieces in Suzuki (or whatever) book 1 contain "proper intervals" as well.  So why the special status accorded to practicing scales as written in regards to playing in tune *in GENERAL*?  As for finger patterns, well, that does not involve the ear.  Sure,  physical muscle memory plays a large part but how do you know for sure that your muscle memory is correct if you ear/mind can't determine what it means to be 'in-tune'.  

I suspect almost all adult learners are note playing and are finding those notes by looking at an electronic meter.  No wonder they have no use for scales because they would do the same note playing on scales and they would rather practice a more interesting melody in Suzuki.  The problem is...every new Suzuki piece requires the start-from-scratch business of note finding on the meter.  Thus, a dependency on the meter develops, and the learner can't really play anything in tune.

And I would rather practice more extensive finger patterns in Sevcik Opus 1 than doing scales.  In fact thats what happens there.   It builds finger dexterity.  Scale playing, not so much.  Problem with sevcik opus 1 at the beginning is the same ol "How do you know its in tune?"

Anyways, apparently Pierre is not interested in elaborating. 

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Composer

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"...would I be wrong to say that the common theme running through your posts is that it is practically impossible to learn to play the violin?"

Well, if playing the violin in tune completely independent of a meter is the deciding factor, then I would speculate that the snobs are right:  "Problem with amateurs is that they can't play anything in tune".

Posting a video?  Well big whoop if you used a meter.  What does that prove?  And I firmly believe there isn't a serious desire to learn to play in tune around here.  The videos can't help you there and the answers to my original post have been less than convincing.  Example:  "do what sounds or feels good"...lol.

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DanielB
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(Longish post, with a lot of dull bits about ways of playing notes.  The "attention span challenged" will probably prefer to skip it entirely, and most sensible people might want to get a cup of coffee, tea or other refreshing beverage before proceeding to read it.  You've been warned, so don't whine.) 

 

Composer, I strongly question whether someone who is a beginner, especially if they are a beginner to music in general and not just a beginner to violin/fiddle, is going to be able to learn to play in tune if they do not use some sort of an accurate pitch standard at first.  Until a person knows what "in tune" sounds like, how are they going to play in tune?  At least in my personal experience, that takes some time and work to develop enough ear for.  Even if only for tuning up the instrument and checking tuning while practising, it will be a practical necessity.

I have a reasonably good "relative pitch", but not "perfect pitch", so I tune a string of my violin to an external pitch or (second choice) electronic tuner and then tune the other strings by harmonics.  But most beginners won't know how to play harmonics, and may not know what a perfect 5th should sound like yet.  Other than my personal opinion that inexpensive electronic tuners aren't actually as accurate as an ear that has had some practice, I don't see any harm in a beginner tuning their violin from a decent external source or standard.  It will do for a starting point.

A beginner has so many things to worry about at first, that I think it is perhaps unrealistic to expect them to hold to too high an ideal in their first few months.  As they listen more and get used to playing, their ear will develop and they can begin to recognize what at least some of the easier intervals should sound like.  It will be approximate at first, but with all that one needs to do at once just to play this instrument, actually being in tune will probably not be the worst of their problems.  But as their ear and hands gain some experience, they can learn to do better.

Looking at what a beginner should maybe actually work on first, I would say learning to tune the instrument would be the first thing, followed by open string bowing to get comfortable with the bowing motion.  My reasoning is thus.. Once the instrument is in tune, and the player can get a good long loud clear note on the open strings, they can get some experience with what the open string notes should sound like and what that 5th interval sounds like.  Why I would say this is important is that then they can then use the "ring through" between strings or comparing fingered notes with open strings to learn where some of the fingers should go.  If the instrument is not correctly in tune and one can't play a note clear and strong, attempting that would result in the person developing the "bad habit" of putting fingers down in the wrong places or not maybe being able to hear and feel the "ring" at all.

(At the risk of being tiresome)  As I am quite confident you are aware, the simple octaves like the G on the D string compared to the open G string will teach the correct spot to finger that note.  The A on the G string can also be found correctly by listening or feeling the answering ring from the open A.  The E on the D string from the answering ring from the open E string.  The D on the A string by comparing it to the open D or feeling the answering "ring" from the open D when it is played.  The A on the E string, by comparing or listening for the ring from the open A, and lastly the G on the E string by comparing or listening for the answering ring from the open G.  Add in the 4th finger on the G, D, and A strings to match against the next higher string played open, and one has quite a bit that can be practised there, all without the need for an "external" source (by which I assume you mean external to the instrument one has in one's hands at the moment).  The notes A, D, E and G and their assorted octaves is a fair bit to practice and it takes no tuning meter or "external drone" to tell if one is playing them in tune. 

Since this is already a long reply, we can take one more small step with it.  Assuming the person has learned what those "open 5ths" sound like (or is willing to add it to their open string bowing exercises to learn the sound of it), then they can also find the B on the A string by checking to make sure they are fingering the E on the D string correctly by comparing or hearing feeling the answering "ring" from the open E and finding the perfect 5th (B) on the A string from that.  That will give enough notes to be able to begin to play some popular and well known songs.  "Amazing Grace" in the key of Gmajor/Eminor, for example, and there are certainly also some others.  

So they could play some songs at that point and be able to check themselves, without use of electronic tuners or external pitch sources (other than whatever they use to tune the instrument in the first place), and be theoretically able to play at least what I would call "in tune".  After that, it is going to be a matter of practise and work to get their fingering consistent.

Am I misunderstanding you, or is this the sort of approach you are suggesting?

I would agree it is certainly possible, obviously.  But I question how many excited noobs would put in that much work at first, rather than just jumping directly into learning simple songs.  Even getting people to practice bowing on open strings for more than a minute isn't likely, from what I have seen.

I would also have to point out, that even if one chose to just learn to play simple songs at first, even if they were not exactly "in tune", these same principles could be applied retroactively a bit later to those songs/melodies one has already learned to get intonation more precise and generally improve all one's playing.  I personally wouldn't consider that a "wrong" approach, either.  Just a different tactical approach to learning.

 

 

 

 

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Kevin M.
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LMAO. Thanks for the warning Daniel, I've got my coffee and I'm ready to read.

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KindaScratchy
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I've got my cup of tea and have settled in for a good read. Thanks, Daniel.

coffee

When the work's all done and the sun's settin' low,

I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow.

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