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How does an instructor teach you to play in tune?
Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 Topic Rating: 4.4 (49 votes) 
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KindaScratchy
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April 18, 2013 - 7:24 am
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I don't think that Composer enjoys playing violin as much as he enjoys playing people. At that he is clearly a maestro. No video required.

done

When the work's all done and the sun's settin' low,

I pull out my fiddle and I rosin up the bow.

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Picklefish
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April 18, 2013 - 9:14 am
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Hell hath no fury like this forum defending our leader! lol! The one thing we all seem to agree on. (no brainer!)

Pierre has a lifetime of demonstrated ability and success and that goes alot further than just book knowledge. I thought I had alot of book knowledge when I first started posting here and I have been corrected many times. (Much to my own chagrine)

The saying is "proof is in the pudding". It is not enough to say you have a recipe, but that you can execute the recipe without scrambling the eggs.

 

So far all composer has is the "recipe" and he likes it enough to defend it vigorously..its still just his opinion. Fiddlerman has made many batches of "pudding" and is quite good at it. His pudding is tasty and comes in many varieties. What was I talking about?

 

This is how I feel when reading Composers threads...it seems he starts with a premise that has a bit of truth sounding to it but then over the course it becomes distorted and hard for me to follow. I am but a simple man, with simple mental skills afterall.

Unfortunately there has been no serious proof of actual application of the truths that Composer holds so steadfastly too. I further contend this is because it would be impossible to execute exactly as he suggests. This therefore answers the age old question of why isnt it being taught.... for me at least. Therefore, ad ipsolitum, and visa vee....a mute point.

In my humble yet honest opinion. the fish.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Fiddlerman
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April 18, 2013 - 9:57 pm
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Composer said
Pierre, you just don't seem to get it.  Read very slowly:  The students are always using a meter to memorize every new tune from scratch.  That is not learning any pitch recognition technique.  ANd nobody here ever posts a video of a scale.  

The way you trivialize ear training with your precious intonation game is completely absurd  .

You are the one who doesn't get it Composer. I'm not suggesting, nor have I ever suggested, that one should learn to recognize pitches. I strictly spoke of intervals. Almost the opposite of what you suggest that I am advocating. Intonation is strictly interval related. Learn to recognize correct intervals between notes. You don't have to do it with scales. You can do it with any piece in fact. It's not as complicated as you are making it out to be.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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pky
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April 19, 2013 - 4:10 pm
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@Composer:

learning to recognize a pitch is like learning a language. First you will have to recognize the sound and then relate the sound to its meaning (in music would be the pitch and then the pitch name). Try to relate it to leaning a non-native language and how you acquire that language. No body could teach you that completely, a teacher is just there to help you to acquire the ability. That's why there are people that can never sing in tune or like me who can never speak English like an American.

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coolpinkone
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Good point PKY.....and those of us that can't speak English like an English person either. :)

 

Good point in comparing music to a language.

 

edited to add... maybe a non English as a first person has a  nuance..(accent) that can never really be attained by someone speaking it native tongue...

 

There is a beauty and nuance in language as it flows from individuals..that clearly has a set of  "rules" but can truly be beautiful in times were punctuation and syllable accents are tossed out the window... so..

Music and language.. it is akin to art.. no?

 

 

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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Pierre, you said this:  "Learn scales. Scales consist of proper intervals"

You did NOT say:  "Learn to recognize all the intervals [by this or that method]".  

The implied meaning is that by simply practicing completed scales with an electronic meter, the various intervals would become recognizable by the ear.  But a completed scale only consists of minor and major seconds between each note.  And I do not believe any beginner thinks intervally when playing a complete scale or plays a skeleton of the scale.  They do not even see any purpose to practicing scales at all.

Its pretty obvious that you are indifferent (c'mon anybody really believe that intonation game is all that is required???) to the critical problem of ear training and sight singing.  Personally, I don't see any way around thorough training in solfege.  Throw the damn meters away.  And to the instructors who don't give a damn if their students are using them...well then what is the point of an instructor anyways?

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Fiddlerman
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April 21, 2013 - 11:01 pm
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Playing scales is only one way to improve your sense of interval recognition. Arpeggios are great too. Playing just about anything slowly with focus on intonation is helpful. I don't think that you are looking for help Composer. Seems like you are looking to condemn any possibility of learning or being helped and are to closed minded to listen and learn.

Personally, I have never used or advocated the use of the electronic tuners while playing scales. However, if they work for you, by all means use them.

I don't know why I bother replying to your comments since you obviously don't appreciate advice that doesn't correspond with your own personal beliefs.
I am also fairly certain that you don't have a naturally developed sense of interval recognition as do many of us. You will have to work harder to recognize intervals than most.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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pky
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April 22, 2013 - 12:55 am
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@Composer 

If you don't think a teacher could teach you to play in tune, then don't use a teacher but find other means that could help you; you don't have to pick on the FM. Most of us, if not all (you), find him a great teacher and who is willing to teach us for free! This website is not for entertaining your "fight picking" personality! I personally find all your discussion disturbing - you are trying to digging a bone from an egg -- while everyone was trying to help you out! 

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DanielB
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@Composer: In many cases with beginners, the "tuning meter" or electronic tuner may be the only standard they have available.  You think they should throw them away because you personally don't like them or from what I can tell any "external" things?  Not likely to happen.  LOL

While maybe in some hypothetical perfect world, people study theory and "solfege" before ever daring to lay a finger on a musical instrument, this is not that perfect world.  I didn't start that way.  I rather doubt that you personally started with that, either.  If I am mistaken and you did, well, you have my condolences.  But realistically, most will not.

One's grasp of intonation/tuning and rhythm and dynamics will usually be rather approximate at first (to put it kindly).  But as the player's ear improves and their interest deepens due to enjoyment of playing music and encouragement from teacher, other players and listeners, then they may develop the desire to learn more and they may make the effort to improve.  That interest and effort is what may one day result in them being good musicians.  Every good musician I've known over the years started as a noob, sounded at least a bit rough at first, and then worked at getting better.    

Maybe you are right, and there is some other possible way that is better.  But if there is, I don't personally know it.  I can only speak from my own experience, not from how something else might have theoretically worked better.

Now, so far as "external" references like electronic tuners and etc.  Everything including tricky ways of checking notes on the violin by resonance and even the person's own vocal chords are technically external.  I believe that the understanding of notes, intervals, harmony and dissonance are all learned things.  Even for the very rare individuals with "perfect pitch" (I've only met two such people in my lifetime, and I am definitely not one of the people born with it), it had to be learned so far as what name or notation pertains to what pitch, and what frequency/sound a pitch has to have to qualify as a note within a given particular frame of reference.  They couldn't have said "that is an A 880" 30 seconds after they were born.  So I feel it safe to say we all have to learn it at some point. 

And what do we learn it from?  Some external source.  So I must admit that I do not agree with your insistence on "throwing away" such references.  It would be like saying that a good writer has no need for a dictionary or thesaurus.  Most writers do indeed have them, because they have their uses.  But very few people will use them to look up every single word they may use, since if they do they won't get very much writing done.

I can somewhat see the point that it is perhaps undesirable in the long term for people to play carefully along with a tuning meter with every new song/piece they work on, and never playing without the electronic tuner on their violin.. But honestly, I have not seen any mention that anyone actually does that, other than your emphatic and often repeated protests about it.  I have to admit that my awareness of teaching methods is not extensive, but I don't recall seeing any discussions here that indicate it is a common practice.

If I am mistaken, and perhaps it is common practice.. Well, my criticism of it would be that other than slowing a player down, it puts the attention and the effort on what I feel are the wrong things.  A player should learn the sounds of their instrument by ear and touch, or it will be very hard to play anything in quicker tempos.  But more importantly, compulsively checking against an electronic tuner is focusing effort on "not making a mistake" rather than on sounding good.   They are not the same thing.  There is a certain range of frequency for a note that will sound acceptably "not wrong" in each particular musical context.  Then there is finding what sounds good.  It is a judgement call, and the personal taste of the player in how to sometimes use intonation expressively is part of what makes individual players sound different and part of what makes them worth listening to.  I don't feel that an electronic tuner can give a person that. 

But for a beginner, who may be a beginner to music and not just the fiddle/violin, it may be all they have to start out with.  In which case, a sensible person uses what they've got until they figure out something better.

For "external" stuff, I personally prefer accompaniment/backing tracks.  They are more patient than live musicians for early practise on an instrument, and they play whenever you want.  They'll do a whole song/piece or a section of it as many times as you want.  You can work on intonation, timing, dynamics, and the ways of varying those to give the "feel" that you want.  I feel it is more realistic for practise, especially for those players who would like to see themselves eventually playing with other musicians.  But in my opinion, the things learned can also carry over into when one is playing solo/unaccompanied.  One learns to listen to what one is playing and how it fits into the context.

My criticism of accompaniment/backing tracks is that they still are not the same as playing with one or more other even reasonably good musicians.  It just feels different and I personally think it is easier to make it sound good with other real live musicians.  But for a beginner, it can be hard to find folks to play with, and so the backing/accompaniment tracks or software like MuseScore (which is free and has a version for each of the major computing operating systems) is a reasonable compromise that is available to anyone with a computer that can at least play media files.  Which would presumably be pretty much anyone who is likely to read this.

Probably not perfect either, but it's my current personal preference.

 Honestly, though, Composer... I think you have gone from initially asking about how instructors may attempt to teach someone how to play in tune to just vehemently attacking any way that anyone has mentioned.   I do not see what you hope to gain from this.  It does not seem like you are actually asking any real questions about how to do anything.  All I am seeing is a lot of venting from you about the flaws you perceive with pretty much any approach anyone uses to learn music.  All methods have flaws, and nothing in this world is ever 100% perfect.  You pick what you feel you can work with and you give it a shot and gain what progress you can from it until/unless you find something better.

I do hope that you find a way you are comfortable with and can believe in, and that you can make progress that you enjoy and are pleased with.  I wish you well.

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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danielb, what is frustrating is that instructors don't really communicate real world problems and their solutions to the student. For example, it seems reasonable that a violinist in a symphony orchestra can't even hear themselves playing so that intonation = physical memory. All the importance concerning interval recognition by the ear is just not applicable in that case. So then using an electronic tuner and practicing scales and arpeggios relentlessly to achieve accuracy and repeatability of hitting the precise physical location of a note is perfectly acceptable. But no instructor will simply tell you this. Some will make a huge deal about sight singing scale degrees. Others will make a huge deal about equal temperament versus pythagorean tuning. And others will make a big deal about sympathetic vibrations and tartini tones to locate every note. Its a real mish mash of opinions.

 I don't buy Pierre's argument that interval recognition is trivial. Sure, I bet once you get to double stops, the gaps regarding ear training start filling in. But the people who are using the suzuki books are definitely not learning accurate and repeatable intonation and rhythm. For them, sounding right means vibrato. And in that case, the hypocrisy is off the charts. The suzuki crowd hates all that "useless" technical stuff but then is obsessive about vibrato which is the ultimate technicality. Composers do not study vibrato.

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"what is frustrating is that instructors don't really communicate real world problems and their solutions to the student."-

I object....broad generalization not reflective of ALL instructors.

"For example, it seems reasonable that a violinist in a symphony orchestra can't even hear themselves playing so that intonation = physical memory"-

I object.....I'm sure they in general hear themselves just fine. I know I can hear myself and compare that sound to the first chair violinist, I often adjust to match.

 

"So then using an electronic tuner and practicing scales and arpeggios relentlessly to achieve accuracy and repeatability of hitting the precise physical location of a note is perfectly acceptable."-

I object......using an electronic tuner to find the note and convert it to ear memory as well as muscle memory so that you can train yourself off the tuner is the goal. The precise physical location of the note is impossible to hit all the time since it depends on the finger to be consistent, which it is not. All you can get is close, so you use your ear that has been trained to match the note. harmony.

"And others will make a big deal about sympathetic vibrations and tartini tones to locate every note. Its a real mish mash of opinions" -

I object.....sympathetic vibrations is an excellent physical non sight dependent indicator of note correctness. It takes a precise frequency to cause the sympathetic vibration to ring loudest, feels great to be able to do that consistent I can tell you.

I agree....I didnt think I would but here goes....There are alot of opinions out there for sure. read alot, experiment and find what works for you. Cause it may or may not work for me.

"But the people who are using the suzuki books are definitely not learning accurate and repeatable intonation and rhythm. For them, sounding right means vibrato."

I object....again broad generalizations used. Suzuki himself invented the idea of "tonalization" and playing long slow notes to find that beautiful tone. Ear training is used until about book 4 when learning to sight read is introduced if they have not already learned it in school. Back then they didnt, now adays 3rd graders are taught to sight read round here so the method has to adapt. Vibrato is also not introduced until book 4 since Suzuki believed it would harm the students ability to produce a good tone. Vibrato is a decoration, people like it. I dont believe Suzuki cared for it as a matter of personal taste but saw that it was inevitable.

"The suzuki crowd hates all that "useless" technical stuff but then is obsessive about vibrato which is the ultimate technicality. Composers do not study vibrato."

I object (this is exhausting).....broad generalization again...I have not seen anything in Suzukis writings or that of his core followers ie William Starr and company that supports this. In fact, next to the importance of Tone, Suzuki was adamant that a student could not progress if they werent technically proficient. The first couple of lessons alone is proper posture, holding the instrument and bow. The first song is technically Staccato and then Detache, these combined with other techniques comprise the first book. The student is then encouraged to revisit the book when new technical skills are learned since the familliar tunes made skills practice easier.

 

Facts- Suzuki is a method that depends on the ideology of a teacher. Many teachers have studied under more classical European methods which are seen as superior, which is fine. They then advertise Suzuki as a method they use because of its reputation for being excellent for young students. This fills their classes and makes them money. This doesnt guarantee that they teach the actual method, rather utilize the repetoire for its availability. Not all teachers do this, not all teachers are good teachers either....regardless of method.

Most students dont practice the amount of time, focused enough to make any real progress or headway. Regardless of the method a student needs to learn two things first and one thing afterwards and I believe its pretty much accepted that this needs to take place. 1. Ear training, 2. Technical skills/ mechanics. Otherwise you wont play nice. 3. is sight reading, provided your goal is to learn more complicated pieces and you dont have a qualified teacher who can ear train them to you.

Most people learn one of three ways....reading, hearing and doing. Its a fact that people who employ all three together (see it, say it, do it) learn the fastest.

 

So dont be knockin Suzuki with nonsense, dont be knockin Fiddlerman with nonsense and while you are entitled to your opinion, we all have one .........

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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RosinedUp

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DanielB said
While maybe in some hypothetical perfect world, people study theory and "solfege" before ever daring to lay a finger on a musical instrument, this is not that perfect world.  I didn't start that way.  I rather doubt that you personally started with that, either.  If I am mistaken and you did, well, you have my condolences.  But realistically, most will not.

@DanielB: Here is a little point of information, not exactly contradicting you: an interview with Thomas Bonte, seemingly head of MuseScore.com. http://www.freemusiced.org/2/p.....nte.html 

There is ambiguity in his statements, but starting about two minutes in he states that in Belgium children learn notation and theory for a year before choosing an instrument.  Not that they never lay a finger on an instrument before studying theory, but he does seem to be saying they are systematically taught theory right off the bat at an early age, and that it is a good system. 

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A few thoughts on interval-recognition training.

I don't know that it is necessary, but if it is a first exposure to ear training, and someone has at-least-ordinary inborn ability, I think it is going to be beneficial.  If a person has already had some other kind of ear training such as listening to a lot of in-tune music or perfectly played scales, especially singing or playing along, I would not expect as much gain: there is less need to teach what has already been learned.

It may act as a kind of marker for future success.  If someone tries earnestly to learn intervals as described in my earlier post (eg Scarborough Fair opening with a perfect fifth, etc.) and is unable, I don't think it bodes well.  So instructors may be inclined to use it as a test to see who needs help or who is going to succeed, possibly more than as a useful skill or exercise.

Does interval training help develop precise intonation?  I am pretty sure it doesn't make anything worse, and it shouldn't be too difficult.  I don't see why it should be misery to someone with ability, nor why it shouldn't be fun and build confidence.  So why not try it?

I am pretty sure it helps somewhat in developing skill in playing by ear.

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LOL, somebody one-starred me two more times.

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LOL RosinedUp - I know it wasn't me this time - I just logged on!

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@Composer: Many pedagogs have the tendency to fixate on some single aspect of a subject and pound on it ad nauseum.  This is not limited to music, by any means, but my point is that every "method" and every teacher will do at least a bit of that. 

I can't really comment on the Suzuki method in specific, since I am not particularly familiar with it.  The closest I came to direct contact with the system was when one of my daughters tried taking violin years ago.  Didn't even make it through an entire school year, and most of what she was telling me about her music classes sounded rather nonsensical to me from my viewpoint.  I mostly avoided the topic, since she was at one of those ages where stuff your parents know and do isn't nearly so cool as the class your friends are in.  When it got to the point where the instrument was collecting dust other than lesson days (assuming she didn't skip the lesson that day), I just asked her if she'd rather have what we spent on the rental as extra spending money.  It was obviously an easy decision at that point.  The "fad" had worn off by then.

So, from what I've seen, it is no particular miracle.  Not any more than any other teaching system for any instrument.  If the student does not have their *own* reasons for wanting to learn an instrument, then the motivation won't be high enough or steady enough, and they won't make the necessary effort.  This is true of any subject or field of endeavour, not just music.

I personally don't agree with looking to the teacher or method or whatever for where to place either the blame or the praise.  If a person wants to learn, they make the effort, and they will use whatever tools they have (which I count methods, teachers or reference books as tools) to get to where they want to be.

So far as double-stops, I suppose that they might be more helpful than some things for working on intonation.  It is at least possible to hear if you are playing the note right, I guess.  But so far as I know, they aren't anything that is strictly for more advanced students?

I think probably everyone has their own ideas about what is "most important' on an instrument or what should be learned first.  I don't have much experience teaching anyone but myself.  But usually, when learning a completely unfamiliar new song/piece, the order I go in is to find the beat and play along with that, then identify the key, then any discernible chord or accompaniment pattern that can be used to play along with simple parts, and then work bits of the melody along with all that.   So I suppose I could say that I find the rhythm and timing the "most important" things to learn first.  But that is just what works for me, and may not work well for everyone else.  I learned that approach from surviving in jam sessions when I barely knew any of the songs, and that doesn't seem to be how most people go about it, from what I can tell. LOL

It'd be pretty silly of me to insist that is how everyone should do it, wouldn't it?   You find what works best for you and you work with it. 

 

@RosinedUp: I do not doubt that it is possible that a person might start with learning basic theory.  I do find it doubtful that most beginners would choose it themselves, though.  I also have some doubts as to how meaningful theory is without an instrument or voice to apply it to as it is learned. 

I remember back in grade school, they "taught us music".   Assorted little tricks like "Every Good Boy Does Fine" and "FACE" for being able to figure out what the notes were on the treble clef so that we could pass quizzes by being able to spell words like EGG and FEED with "notes" on a piece of paper.  That sort of thing.

It was meaningless, and to this day I do not feel it accomplished anything other than to give teachers one more thing to grade us on.  I didn't actually learn to read standard notation music in any useful sense until I was an adult and intentionally taking a class where it was required.  If you have to figure out that a particular note is G by going through "Every Good Boy Does Fine", then you can't play at any reasonable tempo, and your brain will be too busy with that to be able to spare any attention towards actually making the piece you are playing sound decent.  

Music theory is an analysis of how music works.  It is of little use without music to use it on.  I have known far more players who could play well and knew little theory than theorists who could play well.   Music performance predates theory, it isn't hard to figure out which was the chicken and which was the egg there. 

Most folks will learn how to throw a rock before they learn enough calculus to be able to plot it's trajectory.  But learning to plot trajectories first would not automatically make one better at throwing their first rock, since without the development of the muscles and the experience at using them, the rock isn't going to make it very far.

I can see where it is hypothetically possible to learn theory before learning to sing or play music.  I just can't see where anyone would be likely to want to.  To me, it would be later, when one wants to understand or extend into more advanced possibilities that theory becomes really relevant.

To say it another way.. A child can learn to sing "Twinkle Twinkle" without learning any theory.  Learning theory will not necessarily make learning to sing "Twinkle Twinkle" any easier.  I am not sure as I can just accept as a given that it is better to learn theory first.  It might help things make more sense for some people, but I don't think that benefit is necessarily universal for everyone.

Different folks are different.  What is the best way to do anything?  It depends.  LOL  

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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danielB, its tough to find agreement when my genre of interest is classical music and yours is obviously something else.  I think its pretty easy to explore music more liberally on a piano/guitar when large discrete keys/frets are easily visible and chords can be played right away.  With violin, its limited to playing a single note scale which is what every formal basic music theory book constructs early on (my book 'Revisiting Music Theory' by Alfred Blatter introduces the major scale on page 51 of a 300 page book.  And intervals precede the scales)

There is very little interest in classical music on this site.  Its not surprising that a hostile attitude towards disciplined learning is prevalent.

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RosinedUp, its not obvious to me that interval training is not that hard because basic interval exercises exist in a book called "The NO TIME TO PRACTICE Technique companion, For Professional Violinists and Advanced Students" by Edmond Agopian.

In fact in the foreword it states, "Intervals--From Minor 3rds to Major 10's; A Chance to Reminisce...

Take a nostalgic trip down memory lane to those enchanting ear training classes..."

Certainly seems odd to have that "easy" stuff in a companion designated for advanced students only.

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pfish, it doesn't matter what Suzuki actually said because people are using it for their own means (either self-delusion or money).   All that crap about 10,000 repetitions is pretty comical when you realize the cult members actually want to avoid all the technical stuff because they believe its academic trivia.  So they focus on graded repertoire which they first hear on prerecorded audio tracks.   The students believe that all their technical problems will magically disappear by skipping the existing piece and moving on to the next piece.  This blue-collar work ethic is wasted on wishful thinking.

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@Composer: Tough to find complete agreement perhaps.  But some elements of music are common to all genres.  Playing in tune and on time are necessary in every genre I can think of. 

You are correct in that classical is not one of my genres of interest, though I do have respect for it as a genre, of course.  I have never had any dreams of playing in a symphony.  For that matter, I would consider such an aspiration at this point in life to be about as realistic as if I suddenly wanted to be a "formula one" racecar driver.  For either pursuit, I would lack the highly specialized skill set, the equipment, the resources, and the connections to even make an attempt.  More importantly, I would lack the desire and drive to go after those goals. 

I find it somewhat surprising that you feel there is little interest in classical music here, since I generally think of this site as being more inclined to classical and bluegrass/old-time than most other genres.  At least so far as it is inclined to any genres in particular.  But when people post links to playing they found impressive or that they would one day like to be able to play like, I would say it seems to usually be classical if it isn't bluegrass, sometimes perhaps some Celtic. 

Credit to Pierre/Fiddlerman on the point of thinking to provide discussion areas for at least a reasonable little spectrum of genres, and a bit of instruction on blues/jazz/etc in addition to the basic techniques and terms more likely to be found in classical playing.  It may not be extensive enough to be considered a complete course of study, but that would be a bit much to expect considering he has a busy professional schedule and what there is here is more than one finds on most sites.

But the genres favoured by a given online community will largely fall to what the members happen to have the most interest in.  I think that at least in some ways, this is better than if only classical (or any other particular genre) was all that was permitted here.  While there are other websites that are more inclined towards classical performance, from what I gather, you do not care for those either.

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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