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Where to Begin Recording Your Violin, Viola, Cello?
Simple answers.
Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 Topic Rating: 4.9 (45 votes) 
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ABitRusty
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February 12, 2022 - 2:24 pm
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@Mark i know!  lol.  resisting the distraction from practice that would become but dang looks like fun.

@SharonC "..shake violin bridge off..." yeah what id be afraid of too.   or it popping the tailpiece off or something.

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Since I just started a new party with a video I did with a new camera (Zoom Q8) & mic (Audio-Technica AE5100),

https://fiddlerman.com/forum/p.....sic-party/

I thought I’d post the additional view I had (from my ipad) that shows the camera & mic placement.

https://drive.google.com/file/.....sp=sharing

The Q8 camera also has a X/Y mic attached.  And I used a phantom power supply for the AE5100 (xVive P1).  The Q8 can supply the phantom power, but since it is a portable camera with a rechargeable battery, I thought it better to use a separate power supply (also rechargeable) so as to not drain the camera battery faster.

I noted to @ABitRusty in the Party thread, AE5100 mic is about 1.5ft (really closer to 2ft) from me – I tested a few different positions/distances – any closer to me, & the sound came off as too harsh.  Too far (I tried 5ft, 8ft), and I pick up a white noise (room noise?) in both mics.  I have a tray ceiling, which I think enhances the sound (it’s why I’ve always recorded stuff in this room).  

I also had the zoom on the camera at 1.3.  It is wide-angled lens, but when left in the default setting, it has a fish bowl effect--setting the zoom up a little eliminates it.  Of course, the shot was a little closer to me than I wanted as a result, cutting my left hand out of the camera view.  That's ok, I'm learning.

I put a Old movie-sepia filter (the coloring) on the video in my Movavi software, & also cropped the sides, and used a highlight & conceal function on the edges (trying to get the vintage photo effect).

Anyway, just sharing smile

Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.

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ELCBK
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February 12, 2022 - 8:00 pm
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@ABitRusty -

Sorry, missed your thread! 

GREAT video with very pertinent info - loved it! 

@SharonC -

Really wonderful how you've set everything up! 

You tried different mic distances, but what about different heights - maybe a little lower?  I may just be viewing from an odd angle. 

Would you say your one mic was at 3 o'clock?  Have you tried at a 1 or 2 o'clock position?  ...just thinking about what Avery showed and what ABitRusty has said. 

 

 

 

Fiddlershop carries the Sensicore Octave Strings for Violin AND Viola - NO modifications needed! 

BUT THEY ARE OUT OF STOCK! 

@Fiddlerman ???

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SharonC
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February 13, 2022 - 2:18 pm
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ELCBK said
...

@SharonC -

Would you say your one mic was at 3 o'clock?  Have you tried at a 1 or 2 o'clock position?  ...just thinking about what Avery showed and what ABitRusty has said. 

@ELCBK Yes, about 3 o'clock.  At some point when I was testing it out, I had the mic closer & lower at about 1, 2 o'clock - resulting sound was harsh.  However, I think I was not accounting for all the variables (e.g., settings of the camera audio, where I was in the room, etc., ), so I'm going to continue testing things out. 

Characterize people by their actions and you will never be fooled by their words.

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Retired
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February 19, 2022 - 9:59 am
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Hi,

Thanks Andrew @Gordon Shumway I've just bought a used copy of the book through eBay it only costing £3.82 inc.P&P.

Home-recording-book..JPG

With the weather being so dire I'm doing more reading than ever.

Kind regards, Colin.

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Fiddlerman
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February 21, 2022 - 1:59 pm
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It seems that D'Addario bought Sensicore and haven't expressed interest in continuing those strings. Stay tuned.

In the meanwhile:

https://fiddlershop.com/produc.....string-set

and

https://fiddlershop.com/produc.....trings-set

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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ELCBK
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February 22, 2022 - 12:04 am
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@Fiddlerman -

That's some good news for Violins, but NO Octave Strings for VIOLA? 🥺

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Fiddlerman
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February 22, 2022 - 8:44 am
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You're right,

I'm working on that. Perhaps we'll have to take over where they left off.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Gordon Shumway
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ELCBK said

Well, I'm in trouble now...

the el cheapo mic sounds really good to me!

Me too. I did some experimenting today. That video is fine for fiddle, as you want to get rid of unnecessary percussiveness and scratching and hear nothing but the notes.

But violin needs a little more character to it. So I briefly watched this video, which is just an Audio Technica advert and a bit slick. Also I watched this, which is a bit long-winded. And this, which is a bit bland and a bit pro and a bit big bucks, I suspect. I haven't researched those box-shaped things to find out what they are.

In theory the frequency response of small diaphragms is limited, so I was surprised to see so many in use. The violin's low G is already about -3dB in a small condenser, let alone a viola's low C. Or maybe it's just Shure that have a poor bass response.

My results from dynamics and small condensers were inconclusive - the dynamics seemed harsher than the small condensers, strangely, but large diaphragms were conspicuously different - a lot more sensitive, possibly because they pick up a lot more frequencies, and harsher. Yet when we first discovered small condensers at our uke group, they seemed so much more sensitive than dynamics!

I've just discovered the graphic equaliser in Audacity, so I'll play with it after the weekend.

Andrew

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ABitRusty
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May 12, 2022 - 1:14 pm
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sm57graph.jpgImage Enlargerroyer-r10-graph.jpgImage Enlargerlauten-la120-graph.jpgImage Enlarger

 

freq response graphs of an SM-57 , Royer R10, and lauten audio LA-120.

bass is just fine on an sm57. can sound a bit tinny to me with violin also being a dynamic requires turning up gain which causes a bit of background hisssss unless you use an inline booster like a cloudlifter of se electronocs dynamite.  with those that part is better.

The lauten is ok but my favorite is still the R10 for violin.  I would suggest looking for one that has a flat freq across as much of tge graph as possible... then eq only needed for room acoustic reason and not to take out a freq response bump due to style of microphone..e.g. shure sm57.

but for the cost the 57 will be fine, especially if using eq.

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Gordon Shumway
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ABitRusty said

but for the cost the 57 will be fine, especially if using eq.  

The only problem is acquiring a genuine 57 - the fakes outnumber termites. The RRP has dropped over the decades, so get a full-priced one from a Shure recommended dealer. If you go cheap on EBay, you will get a fake.

I've got one 57 and one 58. In theory they have the same capsule, but I find that the windbreak takes a couple of dB off the 58 (traditionally used for close-up singing, so it doesn't need to be sensitive). When we did a uke gig, it was embarrassing, as my 58 was really dull compared with others' condensers and imitation Behringer karaoke mics which were hyper-sensitive, lol!

I was puzzled by one guy in the videos who claimed that engineers liked the 58 for instruments - I think he meant the 57. The 57 is also great with harmonicas.

Gordon Shumway said
 when we first discovered small condensers at our uke group, they seemed so much more sensitive than dynamics!  

[Yet now they don't]. I need to compare the battery-powered PG81 we used with the phantom-powered PGA81 that I now have, for the sake of scientific method, although I can't imagine there could be a difference.

But the uke's acoustic pattern is quite specific - percussive and very limited in its frequency range, both high and low, ideal for a small diaphragm condenser.

Andrew

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ELCBK
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There's a ton of great info in this thread, so hope others will browse thru it! 

Sharing some videos I found helpful - didn't see them posted anywhere (let me know if they are, my memory is shot).

Adding this great video from Taylor Davis that may be of interest to others.  Found it while I was snooping around about audio interfaces.

 

"How I Record Strings" (Bad Snacks) - Bad Snacks Bio.

This video is interesting but the preamp and interface she uses is expensive - a little bit of an overkill for most of us here, but that's only because I know I wouldn't use even half of their capabilities. 

What I REALLY like, is the WAY she records with the layers & panning

 

I'm sure this could be of interest to everyone who doesn't have an ideal recording area. 

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ELCBK
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Anyone want to use an external mic with your phone? 

Back when I first started recording video with my phone, I was happy with the audio - but I was also curious about improving it with an external mic.  I never did anything about it, but I'm reconsidering the possibility again. 

I'm glad I found info about being able to charge my phone while recording - had been wondering about how long my phone power would last with an external mic.  There are adapters, if needed, to use battery packs.

Found some GREAT info if you want to improve the audio of a smartphone video! 

There is a Video Kit available for the MV88 - might be a great choice for anyone new to recording violin - comes with an app.  Video from Sure Creators. 

What I like - this mic is more than 'a one trick pony'!

 

 

Music Repo goes over connecting 5 different mics to phones - she covers adapters and apps, too. 

Mics: Shure MV51, Samson Go Mic, Audio Technica AT2020USB+, Presonus Revelato, and the Shure MV7.

 

🤔... I haven't decided on one yet, but if I wasn't using my amp & fx - I would be considering an audio interface

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ELCBK
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This has got to be my last geeky post for a bit - I can only handle so much at a time. 

I tried to go back to post #24 & watch the "Samplerates: the higher the better, right?" video - it was still just too technical, too much for me. 

PreSonus did a good job of explaining Digital Audio Basics: Sample Rate and Bit Depth.

I can offer up one video, of several I found helpful, that explained everything simply, but 24 bit rez is not just greater dynamic range than 16 - it's greater detail. 

 

Here's a basic run through of Recording Your First Song in PreSonus Studio One... yep, I'm feeling pretty good about this - just don't need it quite yet.   

 

Other threads to check out: 

Basics of Mixing/Editing Music Thread 

Our Hearing of Tone - Recording Music Thread

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ABitRusty
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lot of debate on the 192k vs lower sample rates out there.  think im using 96.  48 probably good enough.  the higher bits i.e. 24 vs 32 vs 64 allow more headroom i think.   you can get louder tracks without diatortion if i remember.  i think i leave mine at 32 fwiw.  depending on the interface and computer the higher you go with sample rates the more latency youll get if you use heafphones to track with (listen while you record)   Its a balancing act... you lower the sample rate and adjust other setting until you  can get a more real time feedback in the headphones.  if you try and set the sample rate to high for your gear, TY youll have a delay in what you play vs what you hear through the headphones.  not gonna go into specifics because its to techie as above already probably is.  if i gave suggestions there would be various youtubes that say its wrong for being too high and others that say its too low..😂  and theyre all pros so wadda yah do?   just set it how it works for you and not worry about it until your submitting tracks to a label for mixing 😉🙂 i guess.

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ELCBK
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@ABitRusty -

Thanks! 

I read some articles, but ended up killing 2 birds with one stone when I found this video.  Wanted to learn more about 'clipping' & how to deal with it - ended up learning more on how the choice of bit rez & Hz sampling rate enter into the picture! 

 

 

The idea of 32 Bit 'Float' is very interesting - new to me.  I had to look up to see what PreSonus Forums has & was surprised to see '64 Bit Float' set with 48 kHz was recommended in the 32 bit or 64 bit float? discussion, even though 64 Bit seems unnecessary.

Started thinking, jeez... maybe I should nip 'clipping' in the bud - be more careful with 'Gain' settings on the amps for recording.  ...then I started thinking about all the pedals that add distortion into my lineups (besides my distorted playing 🤣) - heck, I'm so used to hearing distortion it just seems natural to me! 

Was hard to hear the difference in the 'clipped' & 'fixed' examples on my old laptop, while furnace is running, TV in the other room, automatic cat waterer tinkling, a fan... my life.  I know it will come back to haunt me later if I don't heed some of these issues, especially if I ever get back to using headphones & good speakers to listen to music 😒 it's just hard for me to take the distortion from 'clipping' seriously, right now.  

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ABitRusty
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device block size and buffer setting will be the two settings you tweak the most.  sample rate and bit size not so much.  pretty static.  idk..i set them and left and when i parked it was at 32bit.  Ive not been able to tell any difference.  flip a coin and pick one. lol.. if you feel 48k and 64bit float is the recommended way then do that.  That will definately work well.

clipping...yeah you probably wont hear it playing on laptop speaker with room noise.   nor much bass.  theres some freq that it just cant play below.    if you record violin and set your mic input gain too high you will.. well..could easily clip.  not sure id equate that to distortion pedals.   idk..maybe though.  distortion is something im trying to avoid but if you embrace it your recording experience will be easier for you. 🙂  max the knobs out and rock.

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ELCBK
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...cont. from the Basics of Mixing/Editing Music Thread.

So, I did try to find more about my smartphone audio used for video recording... 

From Dxomark I found a Samsung Galaxy Note 10+ Audio Performance Test

Guess it helps me see it's shortcomings... conclusion was it gives me better playback than it records (?)  I still expected the rating to be slightly higher. 😞  Funny, I remember wanting good 'video' quality at the time I bought my phone, guess I naively assumed good quality audio was part of the package. 

Otherwise, I know I have Dolby Atmos (but depressing - don't see how to adjust it), I have 'SoundAssistant' set for 'over 60 years old' (not sure I need this boost) & have my phone's 'Equalizer' set for Jazz (seemed better than any custom form I came up with).  Also, pretty sure these settings are only for playback listening - not recording.

I can't find anything else. 

This feels like incentive for me to seriously consider an external mic.  🙄 

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ABitRusty
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@elcbk this seems to fit recent discussions here fwiw.  maybe something you find interesting

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ELCBK
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Thank you! 

I had already decided 96kHz was a waste of energy & storage, this confirms it! 

 

NOW... still not convinced I need more than 32 bit float depth

I'm sold on the 32 bit 'float' (it's GREAT), but can't imagine I'll be recording anything so LOUD that it will be worth piling up the extra HUGE files that come with 64 bit float.  

Realize I probably don't have to worry about storage space now, but it's also got to count when exporting these big files, doesn't it (?) 

...suppose I'll have to wait & see. 

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