While this is a "practice takes" thread, and I don't want to go into too huge a debate on frequency and tuning here, one thing is bothering me a bit, so I'll address the point.

5 cents is quite a noticeable amount to be out of tune.  I don't know what sort of test they did to confirm that allegedly most people would have difficulty detecting that degree of error, but I disagree.

I don't know what is considered good enough for violin lessons or for playing in orchestra settings.  But I can tell you that at a bar band gig, being that far out of tune would be enough that there would be a good chance audience members who are not musicians would notice it. 

Hearing the pitches one after another and being able to tell if they are different, ok, maybe most people couldn't.  But hearing it together with other notes like if two instruments were both playing a sustained A440 and one of them was tuned to be playing 441 instead, the "wobble" or "beat" between the two pitches would be quite easy to hear.  And from what I understand of cents, that would only be about 3.9 cents of "error".

(I didn't feel like doing math tonight, so my cps/cents conversions were done at http://www.sengpielaudio.com/c.....sratio.htm )

I am more of a "cycles per second" sort of person myself, but reasonably in tune in a bar band setting (which is not the most critical of musical environments) audience members would be likely to notice and maybe comment.  I usually used to figure "reasonably in tune" was less than .5 cycles per second off.  That's close enough the even musicians in the audience usually won't notice or at least won't comment on it.  That is fairly easy to get by ear by playing the notes together and listening for the "beat frequency" even onstage between songs, used to do it all the time.  Also, if two open strings can be off by up to 5 cents but maybe in different directions??  That can total up to 10 cents.  That would be almost 3 cycles per second off.  Which would be like the difference between A440 standard and "Fiddlerman Project A443".

That much can easily be heard by pretty much anyone, in fact, I'd be surprised if anyone who likes music could miss hearing it.   

Just sayin'.

RosinedUp said

I am inclined to look at everything analytically.  I would figure up something like this whether it would help me play better or not.  That's just my habit.

  Ok, I can definitely identify with that.  LOL 

But here's a simple thing to try.  Play the open A string and the A an octave up on the E string.  If you can, use your fingernail to press the note down to the fingerboard to get the note.  When you have it sounding exactly "on", move your fingernail slowly up or down the fingerboard/string.  Everybody's ears are a bit different, but to me it starts sounding out of tune well before I've moved anything near a full mm (which is close to 1/30th of an inch). 

That's why I'd tend to think that the 1/30th of a mm might be what a VERY practised ear like Flesch's can detect.  My ear is probably not near as good on violin, but I found 1 mm to sound more than just a little "off".  That's why I kind of doubt the whole 5 cents thing.

But really, in practical playing, good sounding playing is often intentionally off.  There is plenty of use of slides and vibrato, or bending a note just a few hz to make it feel a little more minor/dissonant, and adjusting notes played together to make them sound more harmonious than the "by the book" frequencies dictated by the equal temperament scheme of making a scale.  Not too long ago I was having some troubles with working out a vocal melody on violin.  There was this C note that sounded correct sometimes and not at others.  "Correct" in this case being trying to exactly copy a particular singer's notes as part of studying how to get the feel she got on a particular song. 

After isolating the vocals and checking her pitch via frequency analysis, I found she was basically using three different pitches for that C.  LOL  Each was consistent to within a hz or so, once one looked at it as three different pitches, and she used them quite consistently in the different moments of the melody.  So it was intentional, and it definitely sounded good.  But playing it "dead on", I couldn't get it to sound right.  There was that certain "lilt" to it, to use a term Oliver used earlier in this thread.  Until I noticed that, and started working on "leaning" the notes just a little in those spots, it just wasn't sounding right.  Still not good at that, since I mostly "grew up" on instruments that couldn't do that like a violin can.  But at least I got the idea of some of what I have to work on to get the sound of my playing to where I want it someday. 

So sometimes, getting analytical definitely can help.

Yeah, but it is pretty easy to hear it with any of them when the two notes are played together.  And that is when most people can tell something is out of tune anyway. 

When the notes are played just one ofter the other though, I am not sure if I can detect the 1 cent difference.  But definitely the 6 cent, and I think pretty much anyone can hear the 10 cent difference. 

With a solo instrument (no accompaniment) that is playing single notes, it can go out a bit here and there with nobody noticing much or at all.  But with two notes played at the same time, it is pretty easy for the ear to detect if one is off the pitch.  That is why it is good to practice sometimes against drone notes or accompaniment tracks.  Drone notes are also good for practising scales and arpeggios against to give the ear some practice with recognizing intervals.

Ears are cool that way.  The more they are used, the better they usually get.

I'll agree to "refined" in the sense of "not totally in it's raw state".  But I don't feel I always had it, and that it did get better from intentional training and using my ear a bit more than most folks over the years, maybe. 

I agree that different people will have different fortes, though.  Which reminds me of a saying I learned in fencing class years ago:

"Forte before foible"

Forte is the strong part of a blade and the foible is the weaker thinner part.  The saying was a reminder to use your strengths to your advantage first, and *then* to work on using things you are less strong with.  It comes from a principle in fencing, that you use the strong part of the blade to deflect the opponent's attack, but then the weak part of the blade (the tip) to actually score the point when doing a riposte. 

I try to apply that as a learning strategy.  Find the bits one is good at and work on those first to get them down so one has something to work with when one turns their attention to the areas one has a bit of trouble with.      

myguitarnow said

Daniel, you really think someone in the audience could tell the difference from 440 n 441 ??????

Not if the whole band is tuned to 441.  Then nobody is out of tune.  But if just one instrument is out that far?  Yes.  I have seen it happen a few times.  I made it a point not to be in one of the bands where audience members start yelling "Tune up!" between songs.  That is a flavor of humiliation that I would rather pass on ever experiencing.

Back in the gigging days, I didn't have time for puttering around with sound analysis and such toys either.  Enjoy it while you can.  Never know when life will pitch a curve ball. 

I kind of doubt the statistics on that site, RosinedUp, it may have far too small a sample to be meaningful.

But if one doubts the tones on wiki, easy enough to make one's own tones in Audacity.  No need for a website.

I made a quick one to kind of show my point about "out of tune" when more than one note or instrument are being played at once.  This is two pitches, 440 and 440.5, each played for 5 seconds and then played together for 5 seconds.  I found the samples on the wiki a bit short, which might make it harder to hear for some people.

Now, the difference between the two pitches played separately is about what I can tell with normal background noises going on like computer fans and people talking in the house and other standard environmental noises.  In the context of a melody, if those were two A notes somebody played, I wouldn't call it "off", and I don't think most people would.  I'd think of it as the second pitch just "leaning" up slightly.

But when played together, that "beat" is pretty obvious, and on long sustained notes played in a harmony, I do feel there is a chance that an audience could notice it.  Which is why I usually try to keep in 1/2 to 1/4 of a cycle per second at A 440 when tuning up.  Most digital/electronic tuners I have ever used aren't quite good enough for that.  The difference between 440 and 440.5 is about 1.9 cents.  The difference between 440 and 440.25 works out to just under 1 cent.  I can hear that when it is "beat" by two notes playing together.   So to me, 5 cents would be just way out of tune. LOL 

Maybe I am too picky though?   In most bands I was ever in, I ended up being the "go to guy" for checking tuning and when somebody needed a tune-up note, because I have a reasonably good ear.  I was also the guy you went to if you needed the intonation on your electric guitar or bass adjusted.  Even for other bands, if I was asked politely.  I probably am pickier about it than most other beginning violinists, I'll admit.

But I do think that when the notes are played together for several seconds, it is obvious enough that I do really think most people could hear it.

PS @RosinedUp: The "tone deafness" test on that site was neat though!  But I'd say it is a bit mean to tell people they are tone deaf considering some of the questions were more than a bit challenging.  It would be interesting to see statistics on a test like that where all the people who take it are musicians who play mostly by ear, since that sort of listening and memorization/comparison is exactly what one does when playing by ear, so such people definitely would have a bit more practice at it then average.  I hope folks taking that test don't get the idea that they are "doomed as musicians because they are tone deaf" when practice and use of that ability definitely would help one get better at it.