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Luis and Clark are makers of carbon fiber instruments. While certainly not inexpensive, I wouldn't mind at all owning one.
RosinedUp said
I hope you aren't running away with my speculation above about simulation. I don't know whether or how practical it is to make a software model of a violin. But if it is practical to simulate, I think you are right about the shape being different in the future.
In terms of the software, it's not that impractical. Yamaha has had software that simulates a broad-sense generalization of the physics of a number of instruments (violin included) for at least 15 years. Back then, the computing power was only enough that they could manage to simulate no more than 7-voice polyphony. Of course, it's not a real acoustic simulator per se, but simply a detailed combination of known generalizations of how various instruments behave with only a few key characteristics simulated seriously (e.g., for a violin, they'd simulate the actual string vibration and apply known acoustic properties for the body resonance).
If you want to talk about the seriously detailed acoustic simulations, companies like Dolby, Bose, DTS, Lucasfilm (i.e. THX), and even Dyson do it a pretty hefty extent as it is. Sure, they generally apply it (with the exception of Bose) to problems on the scale of entire movie theaters, but applying this to something as small as a whistle is not impossible. I think the software that THX uses for their simulations isn't really made to scale down to that level, but I'm pretty sure that what Bose and Dyson have does (though Dyson's software is meant for solving sound *reduction* problems). The only real cost is the computing power. In order to really create something new, you're going to need to work at a pretty fine sampling resolution.
You hit a sort of double-whammy here, though, in that running through such simulations, design variations, and trial testing until finally developing an instrument which should be, in every sense, superior to what we today know as a violin requires a fairly sizeable time and money investment. This can be amortized over unit sales since mass production is possible when you're using composite materials, so you can theoretically make it cheap provided you can get the sales necessary to recoup your costs. But then, how do you get your sales in the first place? Concert violinists aren't exactly a bunch who are highly receptive to change and breaking from tradition, and so even with physics on your side, it's just likely to be dismissed out of hand. Having the pudding doesn't help much if nobody tastes it to see the proof.
In practice, I see it first coming out of either a communist economy like China, where the initial investment can come on the government dime, or an investment coming from a corporate conglomerate of sorts. Either way, it would work because these would be ways in which the investors have several avenues of income, so they'd be able to recoup the costs without having to make the product obscenely expensive. Thinking about it, I almost picture this sort of thing coming from Richard Branson.

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If there is one resource in the world that seems to ever be growing more abundant and cheap, it would be computing power. I think it is all possible already.
But skipping past that hurdle, for the sake of discussion, what would be the downsides?
Beautifully hand-made traditional instruments would still have many fans and plenty of market. The work of the old masters would still be admired, coveted and delighted in.
So let's daydream a little further. Sound isn't the only thing that could be duplicated. Balance, weight, shape at all points where a musician comes into contact with the instrument when playing, those could be duplicated as well. It might not look exactly like the original, but it could sound a lot like it and have playing characteristics that were similar enough that if you closed your eyes, you could forget for a while that it wasn't some grand old instrument.
Let's further suppose that they could be sold at a low enough wholesale price to allow vendors to make decent markup selling them at 100$ or so. Maybe even a bit less.
What would be the downsides? And what niche would their market come from?
I think that probably the only product lines that might see some loss of market would be the cheaper wood violins. And even then, some folks would still want those.
But what if an instrument that could sound and even play a lot like (insert famous and desirable violin name here) was in the price ranges where they could commonly be given as gifts to small children, or be bought by adults who on an impulse decided it was time to tackle that dream of playing they had over the years? Or if they came 24 to a case and were what was passed out in music classes even in gradeschool?
They would just the be new VSO. They could probably even have color options like purple without compromising sound or playability noticeably.
Look around you. What harm has the availability of inexpensive VSOs done to music? I see more people playing, and more coming in here every week. VSOs also have gotten better over the past several years. A surprising number of the new players also sound pretty darned good. A combination of inexpensive instruments and easily available instruction can be a part of what leads to that.
I honestly think (not just because of violins), that a hundred years from now, the time we live in right now will be seen as a renaissance. More people are becoming involved in art, music, literature and etc than at any time for at least a few centuries. We are in the middle of it.
But is there any real downside?
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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cdennyb said
RosinedUp said
I hope you aren't running away with my speculation above about simulation...
If people didn't do that, many of our modern inventions would never have been developed.
Running with scissors in your hand won't kill you... It just makes for an interesting future...
I laid a building block of a castle without knowing whether or how high it was in the air.

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I find this discussion interesting, as it is what has been seen in the sporting good industries, most notably golf shafts and hockey sticks.
Golf shafts in drivers were all steel a very short 10-15 years ago. By going to graphite, designers were able to make a lighter weight shaft, with specific attention paid to the consistency of its design and performance. By specifically engineering the product in a certain way, it allowed them to design in the exact characteristics they wanted.
In hockey, we also see this with the shift in the last 8 or so years to composite hockey sticks. Lighter, with more consistent flex profiles, the product is again engineered to meet the specific traits required by the hockey player. What does this have to do with CF violins?'
Well, if engineers can determine a weave and quality of any composite material that meets the resonant qualities they want in a violin, then these could become very common. It is not unthinkable they could eventually replace the inconsistent wood violins, and with time, in a less expensive manner.
However, musical instruments are different than sporting equipment. Sporting equipment does not have "tone", "expression", "resonance" or "character". It is instead purpose-designed to perform a physical event in a consistent manner. Reproducing music is also a physical event, but one in which consistency is not always the goal.
So neat idea, and something that could eventually be great for student violinists. However, I would suggest that the properties that go into the use of composites for consistency would be exactly the type of thing that would not appeal to the advanced or professional musician, who want the unique characteristics each wood violin has.

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Epic! And the sequel with the redneck is almost as good and even more wow – such tough material! (But the dish washer/canoeing might be a bad idea; how do you get all the water out? You don't want your viola to sound like it's ten thousand leagues under the sea...)
~ Once you've ruled out the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be true. ~

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I don't think that for the most part there would be many concert musicians that would be super keen on a CF (or other space age materials) violin.
The one possible exception might be when one was developed that had acoustic properties that sufficiently exceeded current and antique violins that it pretty much would be classed as a completely different instrument, and probably wouldn't actually look like a traditional violin. That might get some interest, but like electric violins, I think it would be limited in that market.
Another possibility would be instruments that are a sound/feel replica of some historic instrument. Again, probably wouldn't look identical to the historical one, and since CF wouldn't react in exactly the same ways as antique wood (which has sensitivity to things like humidity and etc) it would be an imitation of some main characteristics, not a real duplicate.
But for the beginner/student market or (as some of the vids have humorously indicated) somewhat hostile playing environments, it could be a good product. As an instrument that one could maybe shove into a backpack, go white-water rafting, and then take out, tune up and play around the campfire later without having to worry about wrecking it.. Well, there could definitely be some appeal.
And for serving sundaes, it is just seriously classy looking. LOL
"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman
Hm. Relating to Scooter's analogy to sporting equipment, there is one additional thought I can bring into that picture.
Take for instance, baseball, which takes the official position in both the major and minor leagues that everybody must use a wooden bat of specific weight/dimensions. In little league games, and private leagues and so on, there is nothing restricting the use of aluminium or other materials, but major leaguers are still stuck with the same bat as ever. In effect, you have a measuring stick that keeps the comparisons level between the athletes of today and the athletes of years back.
Comparatively, you have something like pole vaulters, where the introduction of fiberglass meant you had a sudden increase in how high people could jump. In my sport of tennis, when I first started playing, we only had wood and/or steel frame rackets with relatively small faces, but now there are graphite, fiberglass, carbon fiber and aerogel-fill rackets with faces that are over double the size and synthetic strings with all kinds of grip on them... all of a sudden, people are hitting harder, getting more spin on every shot, and the points are much shorter. It doesn't necessarily mean the athletes are better, though the combination of athlete and equipment is certainly better.
At the same time, having that kind of technology and a wide variety of different available technologies means that there is a big question between how much in the difference between two athletes of the same generation is related to their equipment and how much is their respective abilities? On the other hand, consistency in the equipment at least takes the equipment variable out of the equation as long as you're comparing two people of the same generation. In the case of baseball, they did it by keeping the rules consistent over the years. Current violins have something closer to the former problem in that there are a wide range of products of widely varying quality, and because it involves component materials which are inherently inconsistent, you don't even have a guarantee that a $50 violin you bought at a garage sale will actually be any worse than a $9000 you bought from a professional luthier/craftsman.
Now, for instance, you can take a beginner violinist who, given an honest-to-goodness Guarneri del Gesu to play on, would probably make some sounds that may cause listener suicide rates to climb. And then you compare that to someone as experienced as FM, who even with a rather poor-quality VSO that's badly setup, can sound quite good. Even then, he'd probably say that it's not as good as it could sound, so the effective gap is smaller than the actual difference between the players. But then if you can make the next generation of VSOs of such high quality that they all generally outstrip the results that the old masters could produce... then the only difference is one of skill, experience, and the "sense" for music.

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ScooterMcTavish said
However, I would suggest that the properties that go into the use of composites for consistency would be exactly the type of thing that would not appeal to the advanced or professional musician, who want the unique characteristics each wood violin has.
Neither Coke nor Pepsi is made of wood, yet some people seem to be devoted to one or the other. A capacity for consistency does not imply a lack of variability.

http://www.mezzo-forte.de/Karb....._2146.html
There are more demos on the website.
It's actually under USD 2500!! It's made in Germany!
i wonder why they don't use CF bridge, and wonder how that would make the violin sound!
If what headcheese had post was a real ad, I would buy one, it's only 9.94!
RosinedUp said
Neither Coke nor Pepsi is made of wood, yet some people seem to be devoted to one or the other. A capacity for consistency does not imply a lack of variability.
I suspect that design specifics is where the variance would be the biggest. Just a little difference in shape would make the difference between projecting more on the low end vs. more on the high end. You can still have your Strad vs Del Gesu vs Amati vs Stainer designs just as you can have your Steinway vs Boesendorfer vs Baldwin vs Fazioli. I don't see that variance going away... only the material variability would theoretically go away to the end effect that the minimum bar for quality would be that much higher.

Well, guess what? The guy who made the violin in the video clip (second sound sample) (see my first post in this thread) actually started like this...
http://rochonviolins.com/Products.php
They sell it a little cheaper than the German made one -- the one I posted earlier. For those who like natural look of violin, he has one for you, too.
The first sound sample:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?f.....3345CFCFD3
I believe the girl who plays the cf violin is either Sedra Bistodeau or her sister. She is great! If you would like to see more of her playing check out the link below:
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