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Hoffmann Amadeus
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cdennyb
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October 6, 2012 - 11:06 pm
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Here's what I came up with Daniel. Awesome trace. Lots of potential.

 

The-HOFFMAN-AMADEAUS-is-the-top-trace.jpgImage Enlarger

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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October 6, 2012 - 11:18 pm
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@cdennyb

On your legend, the color of concert master, cvn 500 and mendini 650 aren't very clear, could you please clarify them? Could you also please explain what the chart means? Thank you!

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DanielB
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October 6, 2012 - 11:32 pm
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@pky: I no longer own the Mendini, so I am not sure when I'll get a good opportunity to record it again.  But maybe sometime, who knows?

For the money I paid, I feel the Mendini was a lot of good learning experiences and some enjoyable playing.  While I couldn't recommend it for a beginner that needed something that sounds decent and plays well right out of the box, it was great to learn a bit about setup and bridges and etc on. 

But when I hit my 6 month point, I happened to have a bit of money onhand.  I decided that since I had put in 6 months worth of practice, violin may be more than a breif passing interest.  So it seemed reasonable to try a violin that was a little bit more expensive and see if I actually liked it better.  I feel that turned out well.

For all that some might chuckle to hear me say this about the Mendini, which they might consider more of a VSO, I respect that Mendini for what it was.  Not enough care was taken in it's manufacture, but I took care and put in that work insofar as I was able to learn to do so.  I learned on it and enjoyed playing it much of the time, and even entertained a few friends with it on occasion.  That is why I passed it to a friend who liked how it looked and sounded and who is good about taking care of his gear, rather than donating it to a thrift store or just throwing it away.

I may be a bit odd in this, but I have a belief that one of the traits of any good musician/artist is that they respect their tools.  An inexpensive tool may have flaws, but if it was useful until one got something maybe a bit better, and it is better to keep it and use it for what it is good for or pass it on to someone to encourage them in the art.  I try to avoid being a part of the "throw away generation" that simply discards things when they get something newer or a bit better suited to what they want to do.  How can one say they have respect for art or music if they don't respect the things they use to learn or make art or music?

Ah well, I'll get off that soapbox now..LOL 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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DanielB
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Thank you very much for the trace, Denny!

The strings it came with are "Overture Premiums".  I'll quote the description:

Our Best Selling Strings! See why for yourself - Our secret is in combining the high quality of precision German aluminum and magnesium alloys with the low cost of Chinese manufacturing. The result is a high quality string that our play testers found to be better than other popular student brands.

They're a 10$ a set string, but they feel nice, so I figure they'll do for the initial playing in.  I was intentionally playing about as loud as I could for the test trace, but the Hoffman does have some nice softer sounds as well.  I think after it is played in a bit and a new set of better strings goes on it, it will sound nicer.  With aluminum/magnesium alloys, it doesn't surprise me that it is a bit bright/harsh when played hard.

It definitely can do loud, and the overall tone sounds fuller/richer to my ears.  I'm making it a point to take it to the basement (earth sheltered walls) and play it as loud and hard as possible for 10 min or so a day for this first month.  Figure that will give it a good "shakedown", and any problems it has should show themselves within the 30 day window where I can return it for a full refund or exchange.  I wear earplugs for that, though.  LOL

She sure doesn't sound muffled or "dead", and the vibration through the instrument is quite strong.  Some nicer strings and adjusting the afterlength, and I think she may end up sounding pretty good.

Thanks again for the trace!

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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cdennyb
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cheerspky said
@cdennyb

On your legend, the color of concert master, cvn 500 and mendini 650 aren't very clear, could you please clarify them? Could you also please explain what the chart means? Thank you!

 

Can you PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you some other traces in pdf format and explain everything so you can understand the importance of the traces and their relationship to each other.

In this particular trace graphic the only 2 of any importance was Daniels' new violin and the bottom trace of Toni's violin. The others were just ibn there for reference, regardless of which was which. I have a real hard time getting a decent background that shows well on these low res web pages.

Daniel has seen (these) traces before and understands the various things (as I will explain in my reply to you via e-mail). It's really very interesting stuff.

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Fiddlerman
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October 8, 2012 - 10:09 am
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Hey guys,

I had a lot of gigs starting Friday through Sunday, then I played ultimate Frisbee in the park....
Been way too busy.

As far as the Concert Master with aged tone-wood fiddlestix, I didn't like it at all. However, that could be a coincidence. I send back a percentage of the CM violins that I get. If they are difficult to play or don't produce a good sound I don't keep them.

As Pky said above, Cecilio calls their Mendini line the low line of Cecilio's.
That being said, they do sell more expensive Mendini's so I don't really understand that line of thinking. I tested a few mendini's and only liked the MV-650.

That being said. I don't think anyone should spend more money on a Cecilio than the CVN-500. The sound doesn't get much better. You get better accessories and the instruments look slightly better but for me it's the sound that matters. I could make more money by pushing these more expensive instruments on you but I'm about customer satisfaction. I haven't been selling instruments for very long and still only see things from a consumers point of view.

Once you surpass the $200 mark I think you should consider the Concert Master. At least I have the chance to test it for you.

If you want a KILLER instrument, consider the GCV replica's (http://www.cremonaviolins.com.cn/)
We sell them at a better price than anyone and they are a pleasure to both play and look at. I still have the one that I have tested and if my economy was better, I would buy it for myself. Did all the Ghostbusters demos with it except for the first one, because I didn't think about using it when I began doing the videos.

As far as not making money off selling instruments. I appreciate your thoughts but make no mistake that we are making very good sales. Since we opened Fiddlershop in January, we have sold well over 300 violins and that is only a small percentage of our sales. Fiddlershop is going to be fine :-) On the other hand, it keeps my son and I very busy.

Most sales BTW, are coming from visitors to Fiddlerman.com which is getting just under 2000 unique visitors every single day. We are not ranking for hardly any search words on Google or using any paid advertising as of yet. If we do so, things might change. Using Amazon would actually cost us 15% which means we would need to raise our prices and are not yet willing to do so.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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You're absolutely right there, Daniel. It would be nice if we all could afford expensive instrument's, but all of us can't. IMO, << I finally figured out what that mean's >> I can't see spending a whole bunch of money, unless I intend to use it for making money, then I can justify the higher cost. I only want to satisfy my own taste in sound. 

In the meantime I'll try to make do with less expensive violin's and work to make them sound better.

 

          violin-1260

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DanielB
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I understand what you're saying, Fiddlestix.  I tend to view my violins as my "luxury" items and as such I have a hard time justifying to myself putting a lot of money into them. 

But if you were playing out and making money, most audiences are going to react to the sound, since they won't even know what you paid for an instrument.  If the audience is more than a few feet away, most violins are going to look a lot alike to most average listeners. 

From what I have heard, and speaking strictly from a music listener point of view, your violins aren't any slouch when it comes to sounding nice.  If you had said that you paid thousands for them decades ago, I wouldn't have known any better. 

Probably an expert could tell.  But there are darned few (if any) real experts in any paying gig audience, y'know?  So it never makes much sense to play for *them*.  They won't be who's paying your rent on paid gigs. LOL

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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It depends on the gig, of course.  A chamber music gig or a bar gig would be two quite different animals.  I'd take an electric to a bar gig and play it through the PA.  By the time the sound reaches the audience, it isn't really a violin sound any more.  I'd take my best violin if I were playing in a string quartet at an art opening.

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Fiddlerman
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October 10, 2012 - 11:15 am
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What determines the price of an instrument?
Here are a few of the biggest factors.

  • The maker, his knowledge, experience and reputation.
  • Which county the maker resides in, the countries economy and standard of living.
  • The cost of materials being used determined by it's availability, quality, age, look and more.

I have played on expensive instruments both old and new that are difficult to play and sound bad. I have also played on cheap instruments that are easy to play and sound great. Don't under estimate the capabilities of inexpensive instruments.

A fantastic and truly inspired Chinese maker who can get a hold of fantastic materials and has not been too spoiled by a great reputation and publicity can offer possibly as good a violin as anyone else in this world for a fraction of the price.

We, at Fiddlershop, have had violins shipped to us made in Romania and Germany to offer around $2-500 depending on the qualities. I assure you that the ones that we have received do not approach the Chinese violins in the same price range. Unfortunately, the world is taking advantage of the really cheap violins being sold for around $20 in China and spreading them around like disposable toy violins without any additional adjustment or inspections.

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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soma5

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Fiddlerman said
What determines the price of an instrument?
Here are a few of the biggest factors.

  • The maker, his knowledge, experience and reputation.
  • Which county the maker resides in, the countries economy and standard of living.
  • The cost of materials being used determined by it's availability, quality, age, look and more.

I have played on expensive instruments both old and new that are difficult to play and sound bad. I have also played on cheap instruments that are easy to play and sound great. Don't under estimate the capabilities of inexpensive instruments.

A fantastic and truly inspired Chinese maker who can get a hold of fantastic materials and has not been too spoiled by a great reputation and publicity can offer possibly as good a violin as anyone else in this world for a fraction of the price.

We, at Fiddlershop, have had violins shipped to us made in Romania and Germany to offer around $2-500 depending on the qualities. I assure you that the ones that we have received do not approach the Chinese violins in the same price range. Unfortunately, the world is taking advantage of the really cheap violins being sold for around $20 in China and spreading them around like disposable toy violins without any additional adjustment or inspections.

At one of my local luthiers, they have and recommend Eastman violins as a particularly good deal for beginners and intermediates.  I think they are a Chinese company.  Anyhow, at the store they check out each violin and set it up perfectly.  Even so, when I've played several of the same model, some sound better than others to my ears although they all sound pretty good.  I think that it is of the utmost importance that you trust the person you are buying from to have already done the selection and setup, as you do.  Do you have recommendations for a violin of the next step up (intermediate players, starting their Kreutzer etudes for example)?

Thanks.

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cdennyb
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Fiddlerman said
What determines the price of an instrument? ...>>>

Unfortunately, the world is taking advantage of the really cheap violins being sold for around $20 in China and spreading them around like disposable toy violins without any additional adjustment or inspections.

It's too bad that more "home town" shops don't take the time to adjust, modify the bridges and fine tune these cheaper instruments because I'm a witness that with a little TLC and the right parts...they (well... some of them) can sound and play wonderfully! As good as instruments 5X their cost or value initially.blink

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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My luthier has several Chinese made violin's in his shop. Ranging in price anywhere from $450.00 up to $6,000.00, he say's violin's made in China are among the best produced in the world now.

I watched a Youtube vid on Chinese violin's being made and the master luthier studied in Cremona for almost 10 year's before he began his own company in China.

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DanielB
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I've looked over this violin quite closely many times over the past week.  I haven't found anything yet that is enough of a problem that I'd send it back.  Well, maybe more accurate to say that I'd be afraid that any replacement I got might have flaws that were worse.  This one isn't bad at all, and the imperfections are minor enough to overlook or fix myself at some later point.  And minor enough that it will probably be a while before I get around to doing anything about them.

First flaw I noticed was a spot on one side of where the neck attaches to the body where they went a little light with colour. 

100_0328.JPGImage Enlarger

At this magnification you can see the teeny dings and the small chisel scratch right next to that light spot.  In person, those are almost too small to see without a magnifier.  The light spot can be touched up with a little myrrh or dragon's blood resin dissolved in alcohol and put in with a small microbrush.  The finish is ok there, just a little spot that got missed when hey were doing a color coat.  Also they were just a little sloppy on cleaning up the dye they used on the fingerboard, but again, in person it is just not noticeable enough to worry about.

There is also a very small gap between the neck and the top plate on the other side.

100_0330.JPGImage Enlarger

It is actually less than 1 mm.  It would take about half a drop of hide glue (or a little less) to fill that and make sure it isn't a weak point for trouble to happen somewhere down the road.   

Those are the most obvious "problems" I noticed, and it took looking very close to spot them.  I doubt either of them is anything serious enough to actually worry about, but sometime when I get bored enough, I will probably attend to them.

I'll also likely paint the inside of the pegbox when I change strings after this set wears out.  I just like the look of a painted pegbox interior better.  And I'll probably also touch up the paint on the inside edges of the f-holes, since I'll have the color mixed anyway.  

The only shortcoming I actually notice when playing it is I can tell the afterlength isn't tuned right.  Among other things, that affects where some of the "sweet spots" are on the fingerboard.  That isn't something I expected to be adjusted on a beginner level violin at this price anyway, though.  It is a picky bit of tuning that requires repeatedly taking the tailpiece off.  But having done it with my electric and with the MV300, I can tell when it isn't right.  Mind you, it sounds and plays good, but I know that there is a bit more sound in this instrument that could be coming out, and I will get it.  But it is a fairly minor thing comparatively, so it can wait until these strings wear out.

Overall, I have been very pleased.  Sounds good, plays good, looks nice, and seems to be a very solid little instrument for the price.  Holds tune great and tunes up well.  Peg action is smooth enough that I have been mostly touching up the tuning from the pegs and that has been working fine.  

From having inspected it very closely, I can tell that at least the final finish was applied with a brush, not sprayed or dipped.  The top and bottom plates are two-piece, but nicely bookend matched.  There's even a bit of flame to the back and other maple parts, though nothing so dramatic as to get any "flame fans" excited or anything..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....Qo5IOBuPgo

I am not personally a big believer in flame as any guarantee of good sound.  But it's pretty when you can get it, and is at least an indicator that the tree the wood came from probably wasn't the softest maple in that forest.

So I'm quite happy with this violin, and feel it was definitely a good value for what I paid for it.  I could recommend it to another beginner looking to spend around 160$, at least as a good one to try.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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cdennyb
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WOW Daniel, I love those close up high res photos.

thumbs-up

"If you practice with your hands you must practice all day. Practice with your mind and you can accomplish the same amount in minutes." Nathan Milstein

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Thanks, cdennyb.  Photos, like recordings, can find details that one would likely miss "in person" on things like a piece of finished wood.  But really, "in person" with the naked eye is what really matters.  Even the finest craftsmanship would show flaws and little telltale signs if one used enough magnification and tinkered with lighting and camera angles. 

Kind of like doing "forensics" or something. 

I'll try not to go on about it too much, since it's very little stuff, but for example if you look close at this pic where I've circled a section..100_0328B.JPGImage Enlarger

You have a sharp eye, so you'd probably already spotted it.  The slight bevel on the edge of the fingerboard ends in a tiny (less than a tenth of a mm) square "ledge" where I marked with the red arrow.  Sandpaper or a power sander wouldn't end like that.  That work was done with a scraper, and I would guess it was done after the fingerboard was on the instrument because it stops right about where one would stop  before the scraper could hit the body.

There are a lot of little signs of hand-work on this instrument if one knows where to look and looks *very* close.  Some would probably consider it "over analyzing" but to me it is just one of the levels of appreciating that it is a pretty darned good job.  

For this instrument being the least expensive of Hoffmann's beginner range?  I must confess to being rather impressed.  Someone showed some pride in their work and did a pretty good job on this violin.  As soma5 and Fiddlestix mentioned, instruments made in China aren't necessarily bad.  This one was definitely made in China, as is clearly indicated on the inside label.  

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"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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I noticed that slight bevil in the previous photo that you didn't circle. What it look's like to me, Dan, is that the wood started to splinter on the edge at that spot and the luthier (whoever) was doing the work, rather than pulling off the the whole piece and making it worse, cut off the splinter at that point and tried to feather it in. That has happened to me, I can't count the amount of time's, being that I was a cabinet maker / carpenter for 42 years.

I think maybe you should put away the micro-scope and focus on the violin as a whole. I wouldn't worry to much about the small thing's you find. Sound's to me like you're trying to justify the imperfection's in the workmanship of the piece. You spent $160.00 for it, now subtract the cost of the case, the bow, shipping (I asume that was free) did you get a tuner, extra string's with it, I know you got rosin, now subtract those cost's and how much did the violin itself cost. I did the same thing a few year's ago. I bought a $90..00 violin from Ebay with the case, bow, extra string's, I didn't get a tuner with it though. So if I subtract all those extra's, how much did I pay for the violin itself.

If you are happy with it and it sound's good, so be-it, you're happy with it, it's what you could afford and I congratulate you for that.

I have a new violin being delivered today, I think, so I'm waiting excitedly for it, but it's the violin only, no case, bow or anything else.

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@Fiddlestix:  You could be right about it being a bit of splinter control.  I do not have any past experience in cabinetry, and I haven't ever worked full-time at instrument repair.  But I will stick with my own hypothesis in this case, since there are similar but lighter "lift off marks" (for lack of a better term) on the bevel on the other side of the fingerboard as well, and in just about the same place.  In either case, it would support the conclusion I have come to that at least some of the final touches on this instrument were done by hand.  I hadn't expected that at the price, actually.

I'll keep my microscope out a bit longer, since to me it is part of the fun of a new instrument.  Figuring out everything I can about how it is put together is one way to learn a trick or two sometimes.  Also it is part of getting to know this particular instrument. 

The only things I would actually call imperfections would the the one light spot and the little gap that I was originally showing with the photos.  Quite acceptable and easy enough to fix if I feel like it at some later point.  Things like the little inconsistencies along the edge of the fingerboard are so tiny they don't even warrant being called flaws, in my opinion. 

I have been over this instrument in considerably more detail than I will list here.  I just don't think most people would find it that interesting.  But I felt it in my own best interest to do so because I could still return it for a full refund or replacement.  The past couple of days, I have been doing the hardest critical evaluation I can on the instrument, because within a few more days I think I will be too attached to it to send it back even if I did find something wrong.  I like it a lot.

To some folks, 160$ may be nothing to spend for a musical instrument.  But on my budget, it is more than I usually spend on something for myself.  So before I get too attached, I have had to decide if I think there is much of a chance that a replacement would actually be better, if the flaws are anything where I would take that chance.  No, I've pretty much decided at this point that this one is a keeper. 

They sell the violin itself for 109$.  I got the standard outfit with it (case, bow, rosin) because my wife was right when she said one should never even ship an instrument without a proper case and that I could use another bow, at least for backup.  So the case, bow, and rosin represent about 50$ total.  Nothing wonderful, but they're probably about worth that.  The bow is at least as good as the A. Breton I bought for 20$ at the local music shop.  The rosin isn't quite as good as my Hill dark rosin, in my opinion.  But it's decent, and I may as well use it.  Both are far better than what came with my cheaper violins.  I decided to give it a try on the bow that came with the Hoffmann, and I don't the idea of mixing/switching rosins on a bow.  I'd say the case isn't actually much different than what came with my Mendini.  Typical inexpensive case.  But far better than the old chipboard or thinly covered sheet metal cases that some guitars used to come with.

If I am actually trying to justify anything, it would be the decision to keep this instrument.  Having played it for a week, I like it a lot, and it would already be hard to think of shipping it back and trying another.  Even taking "new toy effect" into account, I would say that I enjoy playing it almost as much as I do my electric.  

Now, so far as YOUR new violin.. I sincerely hope you get it today.  Is there a better day than the day a new violin gets delivered?  It always feels like it should be a national holiday with a tickertape parade or something!  Waiting for them to get there is as bad as being a kid at Xmas.  LOL

Congrats in advance on the new violin, Fiddlestix!

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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Last week on garbage collection day, the weekly recyclable was cardboard.  The shipping carton this violin came in (and that I would have used if a return had been necessary) was broken down and went to the curb in the recyclable bin. 

That made it "official", and we had pizza as a minor celebration.

Honestly, I haven't found anything that I don't like about this violin.  A few minor cosmetics that I will either just leave as-is or attend to when I change strings, but I haven't felt there was anything that needed fixed enough to worry about.  So the "microscope" is officially off.

She's a good one.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

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