Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.
Private messaging is working again.
Log In
Register
Home
Topic RSS
(6 votes) 
Regulars
Offline
Irv said
I tried my new bow with my acoustic violin. Tone was fantastic. But there was a problem. Once in a while, as the bow changed directions, where was a strange moment of sound. It appears that the bow’s energy of oscillation caused a kind of inertia that had to be cancelled out before started again in the bowing of the opposite direction. This may be due to energy added to the bow by the vibrating top plate of the acoustic violin, since I did not experience it with the electric violin.I am sure that, with practice, I can learn to correct for this effect. Any suggestions?
First of all, your hand needs to stay relaxed; your fingers should act as shock absorbers on bow changes. You can find plenty of exercises for bow hand flexibility on YouTube.
But second: I'd like to ask whether you are trying to keep the bow hair flat on the string in both directions. At least in the technique I've learned, the bow should actually rotate on bow changes. Generally, aim to lead with the wrist in both directions. On down bows, as you pull downward from your wrist, the bow hair is flat on the string. But on up bows, your wrist should rise first with your fingers trailing behind; the stick will tilt away from you. The rotating motion most likely stabilizes the bow in addition to helping maintain an appropriate amount of weight on the string.
Advanced member
Offline
Good tip, Andrew. I wasn't aware of the wrist leading in transitioning now strokes. A piece of the puzzle just fell into place.
As for my own bow decision, I think I'm gonna stick with the FM bow for now. I'm gonna wear down that hair first.
Regulars
Offline
Thanks AndrewH. My fingers are not going to do much dampening for this bow, since I determined that they are not acting in the same plane as the bow vibration. However, if l rotate the axis of the bow upon change in direction, the new plane of vibration will be different from the inertia on the old vibration plane. That should work. Wonderful!
I reasoned that the infrequency of the problem is likely due to it being only when my new stroke being out of phase with the old stroke. It is like rowing 8 man crew. Anyone starting a stroke a fraction of a second early or late gets thrown out of the boat.
The next logical question is if I should also rotate bow axis when I change speed while on the same bow stroke direction?
Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.
Regulars
Offline
I'm pretty sure rotation only happens when changing bow direction. I looked closely at my bow while varying my bow speed and making some dramatic changes in speed, and I don't see or feel any rotation at all. A little bit of index finger pressure should be enough to keep the bow from popping up when increasing bow speed.
Regulars
Offline
AndrewH and others. I adapted bow rotation on stroke direction change while playing the acoustic violin first thing this morning to great success. It worked perfectly. And it does not seem to take much of an angle delta to work (I would say about 10 degrees, but who knows). Agree that this technique does not appear necessary for change in speed mid stroke, but will keep in mind in case I stumble upon strange things in the future. Thank you again.
Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.
Regulars
Offline
Great and very useful conversation, folks. Thanks so much.
I'll try to do that consciously when I get around to practicing today.
I think a couple of gremlins have crept into my bow angle. First of all, I suspect I use way too much of a tilt. But secondly and more 'shocking', I'm pretty sure I've been using more of a tilt on the down bow than the up bow (exactly the opposite of what AndrewH described, if I got it right).
AndrewH's version makes sense to me though. Especially since I've read elsewhere and also learned from my teacher that the less bow hair in contact with the string (at equal weight applied to the bow) the less loud. And since we tend to naturally have more weight at the frog than at the tip, this makes sense to me too. But who knows, what makes sense to me... hummm, 'nuff said.
Regulars
Offline
Hi bocaholly. First, trust AndrewH on technique and certainly not me. But physics has your back on the above statement.
It seems unusual to attempt to spend time and energy to replicate in bamboo all of the technical properties of a bow I got for $145 (because for 20 years no one else wanted it). Then again, the work would have been frustrating and futile without said purchase. It would be a kick to make them in 1/2 and 3/4 sizes and see what the Suzuki students could do with them.
Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.
Regulars
Offline
I still have a hard time distinguishing the difference between good Brazilwood and Pernambuco. I kind gave up and decided that a good bow was a good bow whether it was Brazilwood or Pernambuco. I am sure there are good Brazilwood bows, and badly made Pernambuco ones. I think there is also a disputed boundary when migrating from the outside of a tree towards the heart as to where “pernambuco” begins
Regulars
Offline
Yup, checked my bowing and the gremlins were there. When I tried the tilt variation "à la AndrewH" it felt pretty natural... but as soon as I played some simple tune, the gremlin counter-twist was back. This is going to take some doing to undo. Oy!
I know that Irv's initial motivation to get some advice on this was to avoid unwanted bow oscillations when changing bow direction. But since I was interested in the tilt modulation more for achieving homogeneous bow weighting the whole length of long bow strokes, I tried the following:
Instead of flattening the hair at the frog when starting the up bow (and tilting when I reached the tip and began the down bow) I tried going from flat to tilt gradually during long bow strokes (with most tilt when approaching the frog.) That would seem logical to achieve my "equal weight distribution" goal. Any thoughts?
This doesn't stop me from trying to lead with the wrist. I even see excellent players give their wrist a little flick in the new direction while their bow finishes up in its original direction. I'm talking the last inch to the tip or frog. Any thoughts on this one too?
Regulars
Offline
I think that bocaholly has the making of a general model for the evaluation of a useful bow. I viewed a violin training video on Youtube where the instructor valued practice on creating a consistent tone while drawing the bow from frog to tip and back, to the point of placing tape on each quarter of the stick. The goal was a minute per draw, with a consistent 15 seconds per quarter stick. I believe that a “live” bow would achieve this criteria more successfully than a dead one, since the vibrations of the stick should augment the “stick and release” junction between hair rosin and string. It might even be possible to characterize stick frequency response by plotting seconds of draw across the four strings.
An objective criteria like this has to be preferred from the below chart I found on the internet, which seems like a guide to grading show hogs at a county fair.
Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.
Regulars
Offline
An objective criteria like this has to be preferred from the below chart I found on the internet, which seems like a guide to grading show hogs at a county fair.
If this is modeled after hog grading shows, then I'm guessing the judges aren't too interested in how the bacon tastes.
Offline
As for coffee, the taste is the most important. I no longer drink coffee to stay awake. 
The biggest difference between cheap wooden sticks and good Pernambuco wood is that the wood is denser on the better bows and the vibrations tend to be more alive. There is also the ability to hold its shape for a longer period of time.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
Regulars
Offline
I purchased a hot air popcorn popper several years ago for the purpose of roasting coffee beans as an experiment, but could find no local source of unroasted, decaffeinated beans.
I tried slow drawn string work last night using several bows. No trend was noted that could not be explained by bias. The search continues.
Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.
Regulars
Offline
@Irv, what do you mean by "bias" in this context?
Honorary advisor
Regulars
Offline
Fiddlerman said
As for coffee, the taste is the most important. I no longer drink coffee to stay awake.
The biggest difference between cheap wooden sticks and good Pernambuco wood is that the wood is denser on the better bows and the vibrations tend to be more alive. There is also the ability to hold its shape for a longer period of time.
I am with you on the coffee!!!
I was watching an explanation of how a violin plays in and opens up. this guy says that the vibration opens (ruptures) the cells of the wood, over time, releasing the remaining moisture and sap, causing the violin to resonate and vibrate even more.
Is this also true of the wooden bows?
Regulars
Offline
@bocaholly, bias is the subconscious hope of an outcome. The pernambuco bow was a little more even and extended the time interval of the stroke, but I don’t have much faith of using this as the criterion. My current thinking is to inject the bow with a frequency (tuning fork or a de-bristled electric toothbrush) and record the amplitude decay with a audio spectrum analyzer app on a smart phone. We need a simple method that a novice player can use to make an informed bow choice.
Chicken, several manufacturers sell vibrational transducers (think speaker coils without the cone) designed to attach to a violin’s bridge. The transducer is energized and the instrument “buzzed” for a week as a break in period. The process produces some benefits.
Moisture content of wood is dynamic and the only bow maker known (to my knowledge) to subject his bows to a drying oven was Kun. He used the heating process with a jig that set a consistent camber for all of his bows.
Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.
Regulars
Offline
Irv said
@bocaholly, bias is the subconscious hope of an outcome. The pernambuco bow was a little more even and extended the time interval of the stroke, but I don’t have much faith of using this as the criterion.
Got it, thanks, @Irv ... As you know, I'm a bit of a metrics fan around the edges so I'm really interested in the measurements you come up with (comparing, for example, the Fiddlerman CF bow you recently acquired with some of your others.)
On the other hand, when I go try a potential new violin or bow, I'm still all about experiencing the feel and sound. Good think in-home trials exist for those who can't conveniently get to a good shop.
Offline
I'm not really sure about the vibrations in the wood of the bow releasing the remaining moisture. It's not something that I am familiar with.
It's definitely true that violins sound better and better the more you play on them up to a certain point. I don't think it's a defined point and the instrument can sound worse too but for the most part, they become more vibrant the first years.....
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
Offline
Irv said
I purchased a hot air popcorn popper several years ago for the purpose of roasting coffee beans as an experiment, but could find no local source of unroasted, decaffeinated beans.
I would imagine local sources are hard to come by but order them from SweetMarias.
https://www.sweetmarias.com/ca...../?q=+decaf
I've found many unique ways to roast my own coffee including in the oven and on the stove back in the day....
I presently use a red Gene Cafe Roaster and love it. It's the second Gene that I have owned. Had the Behmor for a while. Have some friends who own the Hottop but it's a bit rich for my blood lol. Maybe it will be my next roaster.
"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."
Regulars
Offline
Shane "Chicken" Wang said
I am with you on the coffee!!!
I was watching an explanation of how a violin plays in and opens up. this guy says that the vibration opens (ruptures) the cells of the wood, over time, releasing the remaining moisture and sap, causing the violin to resonate and vibrate even more.
Is this also true of the wooden bows?
It's not a matter of moisture being released, and there's no rupturing of cells. (I was a biologist before I became a lawyer.)
With age, the hemicellulose in the wood decays, leaving only the cellulose that forms the cell walls. Playing a violin accelerates the degradation of hemicellulose in the parts that vibrate most.
As for a violin that hasn't been played for some time "opening up" after some hours of playing, I'm not convinced that there are any changes in the wood -- I think that's the player getting used to the violin. I notice the same effect when playing someone else's regularly played violin or viola.
Count me as someone who drinks coffee mostly for the taste, too. I take my coffee black if it's from a top-notch specialty roaster, with cream if it's Starbucks or Peet's, and not at all if it's lower quality than that.
Mouse
Fiddlerman
ELCBK
