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Upgrade my current violin / Or new violin?
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (5 votes) 
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August 10, 2013 - 1:51 pm
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A Question / Thought for this Topic:

@ginnysg I'm with you, I literally paid $40 for my violin from amazon (probably the best $40 I've ever spent), and I'm looking to upgrade real soon, and at the same time debating whether or not to ship my violin off to FM for some real adjustment).

I've been looking at violins a LOT lately, and I am going to upgrade soon.  After seeing FM play on the FM Apprentice (FAV) however in the Waltz Party thread, I've COMPLETELY changed my thought process on upgrading.  Any and everyone who watched that video saw a pro play on a relatively inexpensive violin (one that I wasn't even considering as an upgrade) and made it sound as good or better than any violin I've ever heard (still a newbie, that comment may be moot).  So my thought  is this:  Is upgrading even a priority? 

If I have a violin, one that sounds like a violin, plays like a violin, and so far hasn't given me any problems (that I'm aware of) than why should I EVER upgrade?  The sound that FM got out of the FAV made me realize that what I was really looking for in better sound, probably isn't going to come from the violin.  The fact is, that in my inexperienced hands, no violin is going to sound the way the FAV did in FM's hands.  Because I just don't have the time in yet.  I haven't developed the appropriate skill level to play at that level.  So at what point do I really NEED to upgrade?  Is there really such a point or is it merely a socially inflicted "standard?"  Is a better violin going to make me a better player?  I just don't know, but watching his video motivates me to practice more, not spend more. 

So @Ginnysg, I am now wondering if the resource I should be looking to spend is money, or time.  Time is of course, the one resource we can never get back.  So I'm willing to bet that if I should be spending a resource on sounding better, time should probably be the primary resource I use, and money should be secondary. 

All that being said, I'm still looking to upgrade, because dang it, I'm an adult and I do what I want!

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August 10, 2013 - 1:56 pm
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@Ginnysg, I'd also like to say though, that if you haven't switched your strings from the ones that were originally on it, and you don't know what they are, at least spend the $15 to put on some Preludes.  I think you'll love the difference!  I just put on synthetics for the first time.  They are DEFINITELY less "harsh" than what I was used to, and easier to tune.  Made a video of the process, may or may not help you.

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Fiddlerman
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August 10, 2013 - 2:23 pm
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Picklefish said
Well, poo in a shoebox then! I guess it all comes back to play it first or trust a pro to recommend for you.

Well, I don't know about the shoebox, LOL but I just don't trust everyone in the business. Having someone recommend an instrument is a good thing and being able to return it if you don't like it is also good.

 

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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August 10, 2013 - 2:37 pm
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Yes FM, that's a fact!  But you don't have to worry about us, you'll always have our business!  All I really have is mail order as far as violin goes, and there's only one place I trust for that.

 

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Fiddlerman
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August 10, 2013 - 6:34 pm
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Thanks wookieman :-) I really do appreciate it.....

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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StoneDog
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August 10, 2013 - 10:20 pm
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I also have struggled with the tuning. > Hearing those perfect 5ths  etc > The E string has been the hardest > it just doesn't seem to ring~~~~~~~~~. I would go with another viddle from FM > The one you have can be a backup. > Nice to have one in the event ones bridge pOps and CRAP >>> you gots nothing to play. That would SUCK!

If ya gots the cash to do one or the other > my thoughts> By getting a viddle from FM you could eliminate that >> "Is it me or the Viddle???" kind of thing. and move on. 

 

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coolpinkone
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August 11, 2013 - 12:19 am
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Good thoughts Wookie and all...

This question has been plaguing me for a while.  I do want a "better" sounding violin.

But I also know there are more hours I need to put in before I upgrade. (I have a decent violin)

I  used Pro Artes in my first year (from F. Shop)... and they made a difference for me.

I just bought my first Zyex strings. That was the upgrade I needed.  I really like those strings and I feel at this point I can appreciate them quite a bit. At this point I plan to replace them with another set of Zyex when needed.

Maybe year 2 (meaning after I have 2 years of playing) is the magic time for me to replace the violin.  Time will tell.   I am at a bit of a cross roads.  And it is the fact that I am not taking lessons...so I need to find time to make sure I have the first Essentials books in my head and get into book two and resume lessons. I also need to go back to the FM videos to the ones that were over my head before.  I know there is much to be learned.  I also need to play songs that challenge the fingers and bow.  I need to challenge myself and not just keep playing any little song that comes my way.

I enjoyed the thoughts and conversation  here.  Keeps me thinking.

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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Steve
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August 11, 2013 - 2:11 am
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Good violins have traditionally had ebony fittings--nut, fingerboard, saddle, tailpiece. The rise of the Chinese violin industry has replaced ebony with less expensive non-black wood on almost all the least expensive Chinese violins. The wood is then dyed black to look like the traditional black ebony. But for the beginning violinist, it's OK to have non-ebony fittings as long as the violin setup is decent. I take that to primarily mean the nut is not too high, which has the most effect on how easy the violin is to play. And uinfortunately just about every inexpensive Chinese violin I've tried (in the under $200 range) the nut was too high. Sure, the violin can be played, but all these come with inexpensive steel strings, and steel strings tend to cut into the fingers more, and having to press from a higher height just increases the problem. The nut can be sanded down and new string grooves made, but not everyone knows how to do that, nor wants to tackle the job. (And the non-ebony wood shows its true non-black color then, too, though a black Magic Marker makes the wood black again.)

So the beginning fiddler can certainly make do just fine with a less expensive violin--it could be played for a long time before any signs of the non-ebony parts became obvious (apart from the nut being too high, and making it lower, and seeing the non-ebony wood without the dye.) And the new fiddler wouldn't notice that the inexpensive fiddle didn't have much low G string bass. But if that new fiddler had two fiddles to compare, then with a little experience, it might be easily discerned that one fiddle sounded better than the other. Ginnyg mentioned recently that she played a better fiddle and could tell the difference between her fiddle and the better one--so she was already able to discern differences comparing fiddles.

I like to browse fiddles on eBay, and every now and then buy one. About 6 months ago I happened to see an ad for a complete violin outfit, for $29--that's a case, bow, fiddle and rosin, and even more amazing was it claimed the fiddle was all-wood construction. Usually in that price range you get a mix of plastic and composite wood construction. Shipping was about $25 so for a grand sum of about $55 I ordered one. It was indeed all-wood, no plastic anywhere. It could be tuned up and played, and even the bow was straight with a decent curve when the hair was tightened. The violin nut was too high and the Chinese integrated tuner tailpiece's fine tuners didn't adjust very easily, but the violin was certainly adequate for a beginner, with nothing else done to it. I shaved the nut down to proper height, put a good Wittner composite integrated fine tuners tailpiece on, put a new soundpost on, tweaked the bridge, put synthetic strings on it--that all vastly improved the playability of the violin. It didn't help the poor G string bass response much, but at least the violin was easier to play from its stock configuration. But still, the original violin was entirely adequate for a beginner, so you can definitely find some inexpensive violin outfits to learn on. Wookieman mentioned he uses a $40 violin; I don't know if that included shipping costs, if so then he really got a good deal.

So what do you get when you pay more? You get full-ebony fittings, you get some attention to set up, where the nut is the correct height to start with, the bridge feet fit the top of the violin properly, the tailpiece's fine tuners work properly. And even if the violin was made in a factory, more time was spent on it compared to the less expensive violins. And probably better finish too--all the cheapest ones have a sprayed on finish that gives it a very glossy look but definitely isn't a varnish finish that the better violins get. Some folks are happy with inexpensive violins, and never see any need to upgrade. Others like myself are always on the search for a better violin--in my case, better sound. I treat it as a hobby and don't mind spending money every so often to try out a different violin! We all have different priorities, that's all. If you're happy with your present violin, that's what matters most!

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Fiddlerman
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August 11, 2013 - 8:07 am
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Good idea to motivate yourself now that you are not taking lessons Toni. I'm glad you like the Zyex strings since they are my current favorite strings as well. :-)

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Picklefish
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August 11, 2013 - 11:27 am
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@steve- I was gonna ditch my ebony pegs to some carved rosewood pegs....since you mentioned ebony in your above response is this an ok thing to do or should I stick with an ebony peg...Like is there an issue with durability and such with rosewood? I definately dont want to use boxwood, I dont think its as nice as the rosewood....thoughts?

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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Helvetika
The Paris of the Prairies Saskatoon SK Canada
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August 11, 2013 - 12:07 pm
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Good info here.  I too have been wanting to upgrade or pay someone to check the set up and make any necesssary changes.  However, this fiddle is I don't know how old, (strad copy made in Czechoslovakia) and I am not sure of the quality of it. My former teacher doesn't think it is very good... it has a dresden bridge on it which sometimes gets off kilter and I have tapped it back into position.  I have put 2 sets of new strings on, the first set was not very good, so I had zyex strings put on.  (The guy did a terrible job and it took me hours to get it playable. When I realized my old strings were not returned, I called the shop so I could get them back, and to also point out, in a nice way, the poor job, and the guy hung up on me! Needless to say, I am loathe to give them any more business).  The fiddle needed some glueing as it was apart at the bottom, when I first got it, so in all, I have put about $175 into it, not including the strings. At least it didn't cost my anything as my dad had it kicking around in the basement for years after buying it auction sale back in the late 70's or early 80's for probably not much money. And I have never liked the A string on these Zyex steel core.

One of thes nice things about having the traveling fiddle was that I realized I sounded better on it, as it was so much easier to play!

So I have been eyeing up several of Fiddlerman's violins, & reading all the reviews, etc. I just am undecided yet  as to which one I want as they all sound good.  Decisions, decisions....

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Steve
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August 11, 2013 - 1:07 pm
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PF, as noted, ebony has been the <traditional> choice for violin fittings. Now these boxwoods and rosewoods have become fashionable for pegs and tailpieces, and they work just fine for that plus look really nice. You'll get years of use from the pegs, so go ahead and change your ebony pegs to rosewood if you're thinking of doing that.

I am only a "shade tree" luthier, having had some lessons from a local "real" luthier then practicing what I've learned on my own fiddles, as a hobby for fun, but with practice anyone can learn to do things like make and fit soundposts, bridges, nuts and saddles, fitting pegs and so forth. And the real luthier had to learn all that himself with the same practice. Our own Kevin Healey on this Forum is a real luthier. 

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August 11, 2013 - 2:57 pm
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@wookieman thanks for posting your video - it was good to hear the difference of the strings side by side.  I think I'll record my violin pre-repairs, then after to see if there is a noticeable difference. 

you asked the question "Is a better violin going to make me a better player? "  I cant say it will do anything for your intonation, bowing, etc., but I know for myself it was just hearing the difference of how the notes sounded so sweet on a better violin that sold me on the idea - it made me want to really work on being a better player!  And the better bow defiantly makes for better playing. 

Good discussion going here. 

And @Steve, you are always a wealth of information!

 

 

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Picklefish
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August 11, 2013 - 4:12 pm
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I will add some opinion here....A better violin does make you a better player. The improved playability, the improved sound all is a huge confidence booster! It increased my interest and motiviation to improve my skills as well. The better instrument of course is only a part of the equation and only goes so far, but it is a much nicer journey.....Kinda like traveling first class rather than coach.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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coolpinkone
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August 11, 2013 - 4:55 pm
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Ok.. Rob..you know how badly your statement enables me to want an new and better violin....... when I am trying hard hard to be sensible and not.. LOL... I want that Soloist or Kreisler..... end of story. :)

Vibrato Desperato.... Desperately seeking vibrato

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Picklefish
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August 11, 2013 - 6:11 pm
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Im with you, I'd love to try one out to compare to my lin. Ive had plenty of good players play mine and make it sound wonderful. All I gotta do is figure out how. I have narrowed it down to much of my bowing and some fingering.

"Please play some wrong notes, so that we know that you are human" - said to Jascha Heifetz.

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