Welcome to our forum. A Message To Our New and Prospective Members . Check out our Forum Rules. Lets keep this forum an enjoyable place to visit.

Check out our 2023 Group Christmas Project HERE

AAA
Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed Topic RSSsp_TopicIcon
Violin Case Humidifier project
Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 Topic Rating: 5 (1 votes) 
Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
January 12, 2013 - 9:59 am
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
21sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

You can get hygrometers in pet shops, department stores (whatever department things like air conditioners are in), amazon, ebay..  The one you see in the pics here is from a pet shop.  The brand is "All Living Things".  It was 8$ or 9$ for a matched set of hygrometer and thermometer.  You can find them cheaper than that, if you look around.  But this set looks nice (in my opinion), and I was looking for a nice set of analogs to build into my violin case.

Problem is, with what I've learned about violin cases lately, I may want to just build a better violin case in the first place.

"DIY or pay through the nose" is the way it looks to me with cases (and many violin accessories).  I am not by any means the only DIY spirit on this forum, though.  There are some very talented and creative folks here.  I'm just the member who maybe does more of the low budget projects. LOL

 

I think you'd want to use a little larger pill bottle (or whatever container) for a viola case.

I haven't noted the marbles sweating.  But I can't guarantee they might not, under some circumstances.  Every time I've opened the case, I've tried to shake water out of the bottle though, and gotten usually nothing.  Right after they'd been wetted, I got maybe a drop or two.  So it doesn't seem likely they'll leak all over the case or anything.

I haven't done any sort of a permanent or travel mount with this because it was more of a "proof of concept" project to see if the marbles/balls were workable in a case humidifier.  But it wouldn't be hard. Stitch or glue in a little velcro or an elastic loop.  Cut a little piece of metal and bend it into a clip to hold the bottle and screw it to the inside of the case someplace where the bottle won't bang against the violin when carrying it.  Maybe cut a hole in the side of the accessory compartment so that the bottle could be in the compartment and the cap with the holes open to the inside of the case.  There's a lot of ways it could be done.

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
VinceKnight
Middlfield, Ohio
Members
January 12, 2013 - 10:56 am
Member Since: January 7, 2013
Forum Posts: 86
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

The idea of stitching/gluing a loop of elastic is what I would personally use and what I actually had in mind.  I was just curious if YOU had put much thought into "holding brackets" on the off chance that the experiment DID work :)

I'm right there with you when it comes to low budget DIY projects and I agree that for a GOOD case it's either going to be build it yourself or as you said "Pay out the nose"  I'm sure that we will eventually get a forum going on building your own case and I'm not sure how much thought or experience you have with it but here is a hypothesis for you:

Given that we must be able to control Humidity levels within the case for the good of the instrument and that of course the case itself must protect the instrument against all manner of things from rolling around in the trunk/backseat of your car to adverse weather.

We also know that wood is porous in its own right and will absorb moisture, air, and any number of other things even if it is at a very slow rate.  Much like a cork in a wine bottle or a good bottle of single malt scotch will allow certain amounts of air into and out of the bottle.

In constructing a case, one has a whole world of materials to line the inside and outside with.  My question is do you think it would be beneficial to line, either the inside or outside, with a rubber coated cloth in order to assist in protecting the instrument or would doing so risk:

1. cutting off too much of the air flow within the case so that the air within goes stale if stored without opening for extended periods of time, i.e. months or even years.

2. Cuts off the case's ability to "shed" moisture so that the interior of the case maintains too high of a humidity level

Thought?

Sorry I know this should probably be part of a case building thread but I really wanted to ask :D duncecap

The pack depends upon the wolf, and the wolf depends upon the pack. The loss of one means the destruction of the other.

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
January 12, 2013 - 1:48 pm
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I am still researching the idea of cases and giving some thought to how one might go about building one.  But some thoughts in progress..

Well, most of the surviving antique cases I've seen pics of were wood or sometimes wood covered with leather.  That they survived, and presumably the violins inside them did as well, is a piece of data.  More modern materials may be better in at least some specific regards or even overall, but we don't have a century or two of durability testing on them yet.  

http://thecanadasite.com/image.....eydcl2.jpg

Finished wood or wood with leather over it will breathe a bit, as you mentioned.  Wood isn't hugely expensive (assuming one stays away from the very exotic stuff), so I've been tending to favour wood and the older "coffin" design where the violin rests on it's back in the case when it is being carried rather than the "on the edge" more often used with modern cases.  I don't know if it is actually better, but violins survived the 1800s in them, at least.

To be fair though, even the cheaper modern cases might last a century or more, for all we know.  The data just isn't in yet. 

I'm not sure what they used for support and padding.  I know that at least way back violinists often used old clothes or any sort of rags to pad the instrument in the case or box so it didn't get knocked around.  

So at least at this time, my thoughts would tend towards wood and some violin-friendly material as the lining.  I haven't gone much past that on design contemplations yet. 

I'm not so sure about rubberized cloth as a permanent part of it, for the reasons you already mentioned.

I have also given some thought to if it might be possible to upgrade the standard cheapie case that comes with the usual beginner violin to make it not optimal, but better.  Since that is what I currently have, and a lot of people have them as well, that has been what I have given the most thought to.  A lot could be done to improve those by lining them with something more violin-friendly than acrylic plush, and building in a hygrometer, a place for a humidifier of  some sort, and perhaps a thermometer.

One could skip over re-lining it, if one made a bag to keep the violin in, inside the case that was of a material that would be a bit kinder to the finish and that would moderate humidity and temperature a bit.

http://www.arc-verona.co.uk/do.....790100.jpg

Ok, since somebody is sure to ask.. "What is wrong with acrylic/synthetic plush?"  Get a piece of it and find a car that has just been waxed.  on a sunny day, polish the hood of the car with the plush.  It will "fog" the wax because it leaves a lot of little tiny scratches.  It will take longer to fog varnish, but it will eventually manage it.  I've seen it on plenty of old guitars over the years.  (Yes, guitars have a different finish than violins, but the principle remains the same.)

But a bag wouldn't need to be silk, necessarily, either.  Cotton would also be nicer on the finish than acrylic, and also will moderate humidity and temp, though to a somewhat lesser degree.  So one could make a bag out of an old and worn favourite cotton t-shirt, rather than throwing it away.  Guitarists have been using pieces of old t-shirt for a long time for polishing guitars.  They work reasonably well for it.  It is a soft cloth and fairly lint free.

So the easy upgrades for the common inexpensive no-frills case that come to mind would be a bag for the violin (or viola) inside the case, some sort of a humidifier, and a hygrometer.  That's what I can think of so far.  

The not-so-easy "deluxe" option for DIY would be to make a case from scratch.  Which still probably wouldn't cost as much as buying even a reasonably priced better (meaning anything costlier than what comes free with a beginner violin kit) case.

So there's at least some thoughts on cases and upgrades.  Not enough for a definite plan or project... Yet.  LOL

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
Steve
Oregon
Members

Regulars
January 12, 2013 - 7:08 pm
Member Since: December 14, 2012
Forum Posts: 256
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

DanielB said
Hi Steve. 

It's easy.  A mixture of salt and water will reach a certain equillibrium.  It varies depending on what salt is used, but for common table salt (NaCl), the point will be about 75% humidity.   (snipped)

 

Thanks, Daniel, that is excellent information and will be easy to make up a slurry of salt and water and check one or more of my hygrometers for the reference.

Steve

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
January 18, 2013 - 1:33 pm
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

We had a bit of a cold snap here last night.  Temps outside dropped suddenly and snow fell and the humidity indoors dropped to around 20-25% for several hours.  That was with a couple of vaporizers pumping over a gallon of water each out into the air, since this is a rather old and drafty house.

But when I opened my case to play the acoustic violin a bit, humidity in there was fine, low 40s.  I wasn't thinking and left the case open while playing, so it dropped a bit more than it needed to, down to about 30%.  Putting the violin back in the case and closing it, I checked it after about an hour and it was almost up to 40% again. 

Impressive and useful enough for a 1$ case humidifier.  LOL

An hour or two in low humidity while it is being played isn't likely to hurt a violin, I don't think.  Wood (especially finished on the outside surface) loses moisture slowly.  It would probably take a few days to get dehydrated enough to risk cracking and etc.  (I think.)  Using a hygrometer shouldn't be another gadget to panic over, just a heads-up sort of thing to let one know when the conditions in the environment the instrument is kept in are going outside of what is good for the instrument.  "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", since repairs or replacement of any instrument costs a lot more than using a little common sense in taking care of the instrument in the first place. 

Interestingly, I noted today that the water marbles had "shrunk".  I had almost filled the bottle with them, and it only appeared about 2/3 full.  So I topped the container up with water and let it sit for about 5 min until they were back to full size, then poured out and shook out all the water I could, to avoid any drips or leaks. 

For a dollar store sort of item, I do like how the liquid marbles work.  Better, I think, than the sponges I used to use.  Those sometimes got a sour smell or mold over months of use, and were more prone to making the section of the case they were in actually a little damp, if I didn't get enough water out of them.  I was hoping to avoid those issues with this project, since I think the violin is maybe a bit less robust than things like acoustic guitars.  Besides, it is bad enough to have to "air out" a guitar because the case got a funky smell from a sponge that went sour, but you don't play a guitar by putting it next to your face. like you do with violin.  LOL

 

 

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Avatar
Steve
Oregon
Members

Regulars
January 18, 2013 - 3:12 pm
Member Since: December 14, 2012
Forum Posts: 256
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

My small bedroom humidity stays around 30-33% now. (I moved all my stringed instruments in here and bought a small WalMart humidifier which runs all the time.) I was over at my favorite luthier's shop one day this week (Jerry Nolte, of Evergreen Mountain Instruments, in Cove, OR) who's been building custom acoustic guitars and mandolins for 30+ years). I noticed the digital temp/humidity gauge in his shop, which was showing 22% humidity. I asked him what he thought about humidity and stringed instruments. He said 22% is just fine and he never worries about it unless it gets down to below 10%! Certainly a different take on it from what we've been discussing on this thread! He said he's never had a problem with his guitars due to low humidity unless folks take them someplace with extremely low humidity, like Arizona. Then they need to use a case humidifier. He also has been a violin/viola/cello/bass repairman for about the same amount of time he's been making guitars. I take my fiddles to him when something needs to be done, along with bow rehairs. He still only charges $25 for a bow rehair! You could mail him the bow and still save money over what everyone else charges for a rehair. That past 3 months I've been going over and watching him build his latest guitar--a fascinating process to watch. He didn't seem to mind the many questions I had. He's definitely a Master Craftsman. He currently only builds a couple guitars a year, and has about a 3 year backlog of orders.

(There's only one Dollar Store in this fairly small town, and after walking the aisles several times, didn't see any of those Liquid Marbles for sale that Daniel's been using that he got at his Dollar Store.)

Avatar
DanielB
Regulars

Members
January 19, 2013 - 3:53 am
Member Since: May 4, 2012
Forum Posts: 2379
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
27sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

The one thing that I've noticed about anything like this is that the expert views tend to vary a lot.   Where I bought my violin from, they say 40% to 50%.  Fiddlestix's expert says 41%, if I recall right. 

I don't know for sure, but I like the sound I get out of the instrument at over 40% better than under 35%, so I think there is some difference.  Maybe it isn't the same for every violin or climate.  Maybe the wood gets used to lower humidity or just needs to be set up right to sound good.  I don't know for sure, still too much of a noob at all this with violins. 

I don't notice as much difference in acoustic guitar sound with humidity change as violin, though, I can say that much.

"This young wine may have a lot of tannins now, but in 5 or 10 years it is going to be spectacular, despite the fact that right now it tastes like crude oil. You know this is how it is supposed to taste at this stage of development." ~ Itzhak Perlman

Forum Timezone: America/New_York
Most Users Ever Online: 696
Currently Online: Fran
Guest(s) 67
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today None
Upcoming Shell, Squiryl, Schaick, GlassTownCur, mcassidy2004, Reptile Smile, MyMing, CarolineNH, JamesRSmithJr, SethroTull86
Top Posters:
ELCBK: 7834
ABitRusty: 3922
Mad_Wed: 2849
Barry: 2690
Fiddlestix: 2647
Oliver: 2439
Gordon Shumway: 2435
DanielB: 2379
Mark: 2155
damfino: 2113
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 3
Members: 31673
Moderators: 0
Admins: 7
Forum Stats:
Groups: 16
Forums: 82
Topics: 10606
Posts: 134405
Newest Members:
alicedcoz258, Dres pirate, tonyluo, Terrence Terry Ruddy, andrea924breaux, pybring, stive4545, kevin498, Fiddlerjones, FidgetFrog
Administrators: Fiddlerman: 16430, KindaScratchy: 1760, coolpinkone: 4180, BillyG: 3744, MrsFiddlerman: 2, Jimmie Bjorling: 0, Mouse: 5361