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Violin Metrics
At what level/price point do modern copies of old violins actually copy the metrics of copied instrument?
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Irv
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July 16, 2018 - 4:07 pm
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As a DIY type of guy (hence the badge), I gave a good ponder on what I would use for raw stock to create a +5 mm ebony violin nut.  Obviously, one could be sanded out of a piece of dimensional ebony wood.  I could not find such a nut already prepared from the normal luthier suppliers.  

I do have an acoustic 4/4 cello.  I measured the cello nut to be 11.3 mm long and 46.1 mm wide (your results may vary).  I then measured a Cecilio 4/4 violin nut and found it to be 6.9 mm long and 23.5 mm wide (again, your results may vary).  The fingerboard radius appears to be the same on both the cello and violin.  So to fashion a 7/8 violin nut, I think that I would take a 4/4 cello nut, trim both sides to match the fingerboard angle of the violin (retaining the center), and mill down the back to obtain the correct thickness required for the violin.  I would purchase a couple of the unfitted 4/4 cello nuts for practice (easily done since they are about $4 each).

 The fingerboard of the "donor" 4/4 violin would have to be shortened 5 mm to accommodate the new augmented nut.  A fret saw and a steady hand could be used to make this cut without removing the finger board from the violin.  A little ebony dust mixed with super glue could be used to hide uneven joints, if necessary.

I have no immediate plans to try this since pinky reach is one of the few violin problems that I do not have.  I would be interested to learn how others would tackle the problem.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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bocaholly
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Hi Metrics Fans,

I stumbled across this very cool and pretty detailed article on tailpieces and wanted to share it. It's way above my pay grade but my takeaway is that tailpieces and their positioning matter a lot 🙂
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/file.....gTails.pdf

Above, I reported on how the string length was shortened by 5mm on my Sima Traian. That was great for my fingers but not so great for the sound, even with a sound post adjustment. But when Fiddlershop swopped the nice regular sized tailpiece for a smaller harp (thereby increasing the after length) the instrument's super sound was back. 

So yeah, personal experience tells me that tailpieces are really important. I guess I'll just have to reread the article a few more times to understand why 🙂

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Fiddlerman
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August 15, 2018 - 10:57 am
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Good job doing your research Holly. 🙂

"The richest person is not the one who has the most,
but the one who needs the least."

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Irv
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Gee, bocaholly, just when I think that I have this tail piece thing under control, you go and confuse me with FACTS!  I read the report you linked and came up with the following points.

All of the cello tail pieces used in the study had fine tuners, so the weight was biased on the front of the tail piece.  I would be interested to learn about a tail piece without fine tuners.  They did not try the use of a 3/4 tail piece on a 4/4 cello, which is a pity.

I think that you could duplicate their results by using a solid body electric cello--no need for special construction of a non-modal trial instrument.

I have seen a reference for an eccentric cam style of end peg so that you would be able to vary gut string length to the tail piece.  I have always assumed that "shorter the gut string, the better" until the tail piece began to touch the violin.  Perhaps I am wrong on this (the study makes it appear so).  I would hesitate to keep adding adjustment features until we begin to rank with banjo players on instrument fiddling.  

You advocate the use of a 3/4 tail piece on your fully sized violin.  I have a very positive result on doing the same with a Mendini MV 500 violin.  I just purchased a 12 inch Cecilio CVA 500 viola that I want to substitute a 1/2 sized violin tail piece and string with D'Addario Ascente 4/4 violin strings.  If the results are favorable on "stubby," I am going to call this issue resolved to my satisfaction.     

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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bocaholly
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August 15, 2018 - 9:59 pm
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Look what you've gone and done now, Irv... it's 9:30pm and you've got me measuring after length on the Sima Traian. Ouch!

I'm not really sure if it's a 3/4 tailpiece. I actually think I got that notion from you 🙂

What I can tell you is the measurements for the before and after, after lengths:

  Original Tailpiece New Harp Tailpiece
E after length 4.7 4.7
G after length 4.7 6.1*

* Earlier in this thread, I wrote that the new G-string after length was 6.4
That was before I learned that the bridge, especially on the G-string side, tends to tilt towards the scroll when tuning. Lesson learned.

As for the length of the tail gut, Felix, Fiddlershop's master luthier, "fiddled" with it a few times until he felt it was just right. Finally, he set it to about as short as it goes. He didn't just jump into a default "shorter is better" though. So I guess the correct answer is, "it depends". The original (nice rosewood) tailpiece produced a well rounded, mellow sound with the original string length. After shortening the string length by 5mm, this particular harp just worked out better.

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bocaholly
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September 15, 2018 - 11:56 am
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New chapter in the life of my Sima Traian adjustments:

The bad news is that, 5 months in to my violin adventure, my smallish left hand isn't growing, stretching or becoming more supple. The consequence: I was "lunging" to reach with my 4th finger and couldn't reach a sharp note with my 3rd while still holding my 2nd finger from the previous note in place. 

The good news is that Fiddlershop was able to further shorten my string length by an additional 5mm. That's a lot. My left hand says thank you!

The first string length shortening was achieved by adding a thicker (wider) nut. This second effort involved:
1) Moving the bridge and sound post up 5mm towards the nut.
2) Cutting +/- 8mm off the bridge end of the fingerboard.
3) Replacing the 3/4 harp tailpiece with a standard 4/4.

9pAAAA9kAAMBxbW1vZAAAAAAAAAYQAACgLgAAAADQ5e4AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA==Image Enlarger

As you can see from the pic, the bridge is now about 5mm north of the f-hole notches. That gives the following change:
- 321mm = previous string length (with the enlarged nut)
- 316mm = new string length (with additional shifting north of the bridge)

Felix at Fiddlershop, tried just moving the bridge and sound post previously but it didn't sound great. This time, in conjunction with the slight reduction in fingerboard length and the larger tailpiece, the sound works much better.

From what I've gleaned from reading up on this, there is a phenomenon called "fingerboard tuning" and I'm guessing that the shortening put the fingerboard more in phase with the rest of the violin body. It also leaves a better sized gap for my bow since the newly set bridge was a bit too close to the original fingerboard. Just for fun, I'm thinking of getting my hands on some lead tape to attach to the bottom side of the fingerboard to see if that influences the sound. Anyone have a hypothesis on this?

Now for the tailpiece: Yes, it's bigger, @Irv. I remember how happy we were with the 3/4 harp to enhance the instrument's sound. But apparently, the larger the after length, the louder the instrument and the more overtones. Since the Sima Traian is already plenty powerful and sonorous, I'm now giving this 4/4 rosewood item a try. The new after length is 50mm... perhaps a tad short. But then again, I'm all for making this violin experience as quiet as possible. Hence the new Violino strings you see mounted. 

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Irv
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September 15, 2018 - 4:10 pm
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Hi bocaholly (and others).  Please provide an overall view of the front of the violin for comparison.  If you like this arrangement, you may want to have a notch added to the f holes to aid alignment of the bridge in the future.

Did you do a comparison between an ebony and rosewood tail piece?

It would be rather easy to attach magnets to the underside of the fingerboard with double sided tape, and add mass with steel washers or similar.

How long is your neck?  If reasonably long, I may be working on something that may be of interest to you.  I will check on string length tonight and see if I am close.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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Irv
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Hi bocaholly.  I measure 286 mm from nut to bridge, and 324 mm from nut to tailpiece, so I don’t think I will be able to call it “the bocaholly special.”  

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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bocaholly
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@Irv, bocaholly special or not, here's the new Sima Traian photo you asked for along side of one of Fiddlershop's original Sima Traians. The angle of the shots are slightly different so the neck of mine looks foreshortened (which it's not) but it's easy enough to see that my bridge is further north and that there's more distance between the bottom of my fingerboard and the top of the f-holes than in the pure Sima Traian. 

On mine both the after length and the distance between bridge and fingerboard is 5mm. Looks like the original has just about the same proportion.

aQAAAPZAADAcW1tb2QAAAAAAAAGEAAAoC4AAAAA0OXuAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=Image Enlarger

Now take a look at the proportions both string lengths have (something to do with "stop length"?)
aQAAAPZAADAcW1tb2QAAAAAAAAGEAAAoC4AAAAA0OXuAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=Image Enlarger
Within one half a millimeter, the ratios are identical. Both are the classical modern violin 2/3 ratios. I think that's maybe how Felix got away with bloody murder here... by respecting those proportions (plus sound post adjustment, plus different tailpiece.)

Happy to say that I practiced for a couple of hours today and am thrilled at how helpful this adjustment is. Now it's time to take advantage of the more comfortable pinky reach and quiet that left hand down!

I also picked up some lead tape and weights from the golf pro shop and will give them a try in different spots under the fingerboard to see what this "fingerboard tuning" thing is all about. Any guidance welcomed. 

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Irv
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Hi bocaholly.  Perusing this thread is like taking a college course on scholarship.  I am at once humble, guilty, and appreciative in equal measure.  Thank you for your continued postings, since I am certainly learning a lot.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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bocaholly
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@Irv, Yup, you're totally guilty! If it weren't for your interest, I probably wouldn't be geeking out on this stuff.

With Felix and the other talented luthiers at Fiddlershop, I'd surely be getting myself into serious trouble by trying some of these mods myself. So, (un)fortunately, no DYI badges for me 🙂

If I ever open that pack of lead tape and try sticking it under my fingerboard, I'll keep you posted. Right now it seems pretty close to it's original harmonious resonance but I'm a "dark-sonorous-mellow" junky so we'll see.

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bocaholly
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September 18, 2018 - 5:33 pm
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LEAD TAPE AND AFTER LENGTH FOLLOW-UP:

The lead tape experiment was a bomb. I had put a strip about 1/2 inch wide under the bridge end of the fingerboard. First comment from my teacher (who I hadn't clued in) was, "do you have a mute on?" I went home, removed the strip and the sound was, indeed, cleaner without.

As for the after length, I reported, above, that my newly shortened string length / after length ratio was not quite the "standard" 6:1. So I got brave and shortened the tail gut by the amount necessary to achieve that ratio (about 4mm.) Maybe it's the placebo effect but I think the sound is at least as good as before if not a tad more mellow. The really good news is that I didn't dislodge the sound post while trying 🙂

I'm trying to refrain from getting a sound post adjuster... I hear fiddling around with  that can get really addictive. Oh my!

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Irv
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Well bocaholly, you have once again been the source of inspiration.  Harbor Freight sells a bag of short bungee cord loops attached to 1 inch diameter plastic balls at a very inexpensive cost.  They are very handy for securing things.  If a longer loop of bungee material was attached to the plastic ball, it would be very easy to secure the loop around the middle of the violin over the sound post to retain the post while replacing strings.  I am going to make one and try it out.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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bocaholly
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@Irv, if I get it right, you're going to try and put something like a tourniquet around the C-bouts because you want to prevent the sound post from falling when completely loosening all strings at once. Correct?

I'm sure you know how to set a sound post (as opposed to me) so no big danger giving it a try. But my intuition tells me that, because of the violin's geometry (flat and wide) the tourniquet will exert more force horizontally from C-bout to C-bout than vertically from top to bottom plate. If yes, that would cause the top and bottom plates to bulge away from each other and encourage the sound post to fall. 

Now I'm really curious as to how your experiment turns out 🙂

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Irv
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Hi bocaholly.  I have spent the morning flexing tubby, the 12 inch viola that I want to convert to a violin.  Even with the sound post in place (which is what we want), the top and bottom plates are much more compliant than the “c” bout.  It is likely due to the posts inserted in each corner of the bout and the relative distances.  Easily measured once I make the noose.

Fiddlerman sells a “violin sound post insersion/removal tool.”  This is part of a larger system of items, all inexpensive, for correctly sizing and cutting the sound post for proper fit.  The inventor has a short video on YouTube explaining how his system works.  He also sells a very inexpensive USB miniature video camera that can be inserted into the f hole for inspection that works well.  

The similar tool for the cello has a design flaw in that the indicator arm is too short to show the position of the sound post when viewed from above.  

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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bocaholly
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Waiting for the post-noose report, @Irv.

Hope I got it wrong with the direction of the pressure. Love living vicarously over your experiments but don't think I should be fiddling with my sound post. I might be able to learn to use the tools you recommend but I'd spend even less time practicing and more time experimenting 🙂

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Irv
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My problem with the internet is I see something interesting of which is of no immediate use to me, and when I need it there is no reliable method of indexing it so that I can find it again.  Such was the case when I mentioned somewhere above a violin/viola endpin that adjusts tail piece cord length.  I have been trying to find it again for bocaholly without success from Google.  Fortunately, I have found it in a spiral notebook of interests.

It is called an Zmt endpin and goes for about 30 euros.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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bocaholly
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September 21, 2018 - 5:26 pm
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Thanks, @Irv 
I had already invested an end pin similar to this one:
https://fiddlershop.com/produc.....tton-8-3mm
Mine also has a removable plastic screw in the middle which enables you to peek inside the violin. Sounds superfluous but it's actually pretty convenient if you want to check for exterior light shining through potential cracks or to verify sound post placement. You do have to take off the tailpiece to adjust the tail gut, though. 

Mine was $29 (free shipping over $25) and the ZMT item seems to come out to about $40 plus int'l shipping.

Just for yucks, if you can make an abstraction of my beginner bowing, this is what a scale sounds like before and after I shortened my tail gut by about 4mm:

BEFORE:
https://youtu.be/Pqqvc25PbD4

AFTER:
https://youtu.be/TslEKmuXFJ4

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Irv
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Much nicer with the shorter tail piece cord.

Success is the progressive realisation of a worthy ideal. —Earl Nightingale.

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bocaholly
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@Irv, Thx for the feedback. I agree.

By the way, here's a pic of that end pin with the removable plastic screw in the center:

aQAAAPZAADAcW1tb2QAAAAAAAAGEAAAoC4AAAAA0OXuAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=

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